Manchester Arena explosion 22/05/2017

[petemcewan 27]

Waldo,

 

Wise words.

[willman 10]

No of course not, I wasn't implying that, however a lot of the 'close our borders, make Muslims wear tag' brigade use the argument that the Muslim community are supporting terrorists when this just isn't true.

 

Equally, I'm not sure how you get the fact that police haven't locked someone up for drug dealing means the community must support them? There is a distinct difference between supporting and having to deal with. How do you know that area hasn't reported the guy multiple times but that the police don't have any evidence to arrest/charge him?

 

I agree with you 100% - but all the same issues relating to home grown drug sellers and burglars etc, relates to these guys.

The police etc can only keep an eye on them,but if the rest of the community don't have an issue with him,he can just carry on.

 

By support i mean - not reporting,not giving evidence and turning a blind eye to the going's on.

[Michael_W 11]

Anyone see Question Time last night ?

All the usual soundbites and unanswered questions from the politicians, the programme was from Salford, and what I found interesting was the non responses and general ignorance from some of the panel when faced with statements from a couple of people in the audience.

Firstly a bloke in the audience wafted a couple of anti western propaganda pamphlets that he had been given at an open day at Didsbury mosque, and then a young Muslim girl who mentioned 'the elephant in the room' and went on to say what she believed was happening in some of the mosques.

I believe that politically, in this country, we have become cowards, in respect of not wanting to be seen as culturally insensitive etc the approach to 'solving' that almost unsolvable problem of terrorism.

I would like to make some sort of analogy here, and some may believe it's a flawed one, however, here goes:

During the 70s and 80s in this country we had a problem of football hooliganism, football and politicians pondered and postured the problem.

Policing matches changed, fans were segregated, fences were put up and still the problems continued. Heysel and Hillsborough brought things to a head in the mid to late 80s and everyone realised the battle was not being won. The fans got smarter and arranged their battles outside the grounds the police got smarter and started to infiltrate the hooligan gangs, film them and gather intelligence. All this took years and is still not 100% problem solved but it is now generally well under control in the UK.

Now while all this was happening all football supporters were treated a particular way, herded around like cattle, movements restricted, filmed etc and those still falling foul after arrest or conviction were made to report to police stations on match days, stopped from travelling to football matches home and abroad, many football supporters were basically treat like second class citizens for a long time talk about civil liberties ... pfffft but by and large it has worked.

If the police and authorities can do that by 'strong' policing approximately a million football supporters every weekend for 30/40 years, then what is the problem with being a bit more like that within the Muslim community, particularly anything or anyone who is flagged up ?

I will tell you what it is currently, we dare not and will not police the Muslim community like we did our football supporters because of certain sensitivities IMHO !

Does anyone think we will see more benefit to a continued softly softly approach or should it be stepped up to a more football match strength type of approach ?

I know what the general answer will be BTW ...... a la Corbyn me thinks.

[Hairyloon 10]

I would like to make some sort of analogy here, and some may believe it's a flawed one, however, here goes:

All analogies are flawed, the trick is to recognise where they break down and not get distracted by the flaw.

 

If the police and authorities can do that by 'strong' policing approximately a million football supporters every weekend for 30/40 years, then what is the problem with being a bit more like that within the Muslim community, particularly anything or anyone who is flagged up ?

 

At least two reasons: firstly because everyone has a choice of whether or not to be a football fan, and as a fan, whether or not to join a mob at a match or to watch it on TV.

Secondly because the proportion of fans out, getting involved in the troubles was a far greater proportion of the whole.

Thirdly because of the cost: how much does it cost to provide that much policing, once a week for only part of the year. You are talking about doing it all day, every day, and without having any football clubs you can send any part of the bill to.

[Waldo 96]

Does anyone think we will see more benefit to a continued softly softly approach or should it be stepped up to a more football match strength type of approach?

 

I think you'd need to compare and contrast the likely effectiveness of each approach...

 

I'm no fan of Islam, but to my mind, the most important thing is for authorities to engage with (listen to, rather than *just* lay down the law) and be on the same page as the Muslim community; regarding how to tackle extremism. I think if you just try to foist your own solutions on them, you're going to meet resistance and create more distrust, disharmony, and possibly more extremists?

 

Regarding football violence; I'd have a very different approach that would likely nip football violence in the bud in no time at all. Hooligans would have to sign up for it; and those that do would be allowed to fight each other (to the point of death if they like) on the following conditions: 1. They don't hold each other legally responsible for injuries or death. 2. They are not allowed any treatment on the NHS for injuries received in battle. 3. Battles would take place in organised (by authorities) arenas where no harm can come to innocent parties (bodily harm, or harm to property).

 

I think were such a scheme to be implemented, you'd suddenly find there were a lot less football hooligans around.

[willman 10]

Anyone see Question Time last night ?

All the usual soundbites and unanswered questions from the politicians, the programme was from Salford, and what I found interesting was the non responses and general ignorance from some of the panel when faced with statements from a couple of people in the audience.

Firstly a bloke in the audience wafted a couple of anti western propaganda pamphlets that he had been given at an open day at Didsbury mosque, and then a young Muslim girl who mentioned 'the elephant in the room' and went on to say what she believed was happening in some of the mosques.

I believe that politically, in this country, we have become cowards, in respect of not wanting to be seen as culturally insensitive etc the approach to 'solving' that almost unsolvable problem of terrorism.

I would like to make some sort of analogy here, and some may believe it's a flawed one, however, here goes:

During the 70s and 80s in this country we had a problem of football hooliganism, football and politicians pondered and postured the problem.

Policing matches changed, fans were segregated, fences were put up and still the problems continued. Heysel and Hillsborough brought things to a head in the mid to late 80s and everyone realised the battle was not being won. The fans got smarter and arranged their battles outside the grounds the police got smarter and started to infiltrate the hooligan gangs, film them and gather intelligence. All this took years and is still not 100% problem solved but it is now generally well under control in the UK.

Now while all this was happening all football supporters were treated a particular way, herded around like cattle, movements restricted, filmed etc and those still falling foul after arrest or conviction were made to report to police stations on match days, stopped from travelling to football matches home and abroad, many football supporters were basically treat like second class citizens for a long time talk about civil liberties ... pfffft but by and large it has worked.

If the police and authorities can do that by 'strong' policing approximately a million football supporters every weekend for 30/40 years, then what is the problem with being a bit more like that within the Muslim community, particularly anything or anyone who is flagged up ?

I will tell you what it is currently, we dare not and will not police the Muslim community like we did our football supporters because of certain sensitivities IMHO !

Does anyone think we will see more benefit to a continued softly softly approach or should it be stepped up to a more football match strength type of approach ?

I know what the general answer will be BTW ...... a la Corbyn me thinks.

 

Neither did we police the white Irish Christians - even though we had innocent people targeted daily and not just by bombing. Lets hope they don' cotton on to their old strategies for fear and terrorism.

[melthebell 862]

 

I'm no fan of Islam, but to my mind, the most important thing is for authorities to engage with (listen to, rather than *just* lay down the law) and be on the same page as the Muslim community; regarding how to tackle extremism. I think if you just try to foist your own solutions on them, you're going to meet resistance and create more distrust, disharmony, and possibly more extremists?

some people really dont get it, do they? like the BNP sorry i meant ukip

[Waldo 96]

some people really dont get it, do they? like the BNP sorry i meant ukip

 

Well, they may not get it right now; but all people are in a process of change. The question is, the people who are not getting it right now; how do you best help them?

 

I like this story; Rev. Wade Watts VS KKK leader Johnny Lee Clary. Now, I'm not so big on the religious aspect, but I have to admire the reverend's approach, his compassion and patience with someone who was clearly filled with hate.

 

[Michael_W 11]

All analogies are flawed, the trick is to recognise where they break down and not get distracted by the flaw.

 

 

 

At least two reasons: firstly because everyone has a choice of whether or not to be a football fan, and as a fan, whether or not to join a mob at a match or to watch it on TV.

Secondly because the proportion of fans out, getting involved in the troubles was a far greater proportion of the whole.

Thirdly because of the cost: how much does it cost to provide that much policing, once a week for only part of the year. You are talking about doing it all day, every day, and without having any football clubs you can send any part of the bill to.

 

It would not be on the scale of policing football though would it, how many hooligans were known and placed on orders to report to the nick every weekend etc.

The intelligence services reckon there are over 3000 'known' suspects currently are they restricting their movement ? If not why not ?

 

---------- Post added 26-05-2017 at 18:07 ----------

 

Neither did we police the white Irish Christians - even though we had innocent people targeted daily and not just by bombing. Lets hope they don' cotton on to their old strategies for fear and terrorism.

 

We did send troops over to Northern Ireland though.

 

---------- Post added 26-05-2017 at 18:09 ----------

 

some people really dont get it, do they? like the BNP sorry i meant ukip

 

Got anything relevant to point out mel ? I reckon not eh

[tinfoilhat 11]

It would not be on the scale of policing football though would it, how many hooligans were known and placed on orders to report to the nick every weekend etc.

The intelligence services reckon there are over 3000 'known' suspects currently are they restricting their movement ? If not why not ?

 

---------- Post added 26-05-2017 at 18:07 ----------

 

 

We did send troops over to Northern Ireland though.

 

But why every weekend? Because that's when football hooligans like to operate - when there is match ideally against another group of hooligans. Islamic terrorism is 24/7.

[melthebell 862]

It would not be on the scale of policing football though would it, how many hooligans were known and placed on orders to report to the nick every weekend etc.

The intelligence services reckon there are over 3000 'known' suspects currently are they restricting their movement ? If not why not ?

 

---------- Post added 26-05-2017 at 18:07 ----------

 

 

We did send troops over to Northern Ireland though.

 

---------- Post added 26-05-2017 at 18:09 ----------

 

 

Got anything relevant to point out mel ? I reckon not eh

this is an interesting article about the battle against the terrorists

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40050549

 

seems despite being reported a few times, this bomber was deemed low importance and dropped down the list of priorities

[Michael_W 11]

But why every weekend? Because that's when football hooligans like to operate - when there is match ideally against another group of hooligans. Islamic terrorism is 24/7.

 

Well I never, you really have thought about this haven't you