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The Consequences of Brexit (part 3)

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Touching on that last part. Do you not think that until a plan is formulated or begins to unroll that bad news is all that can be reported on, or indeed that, that is all that they focus on?

This country is very good at finding bad news.

 

No I don't think that because I deal with businesses every day that are at the very least planning to part relocate operations to the EU. Some more than others. For some it is minimal, others significant. The business sentiment is not good at all because there is huge uncertainty. There are going to be a lot of jobs moved away for sure.

 

We get told on here that all the economic indicators are good. It's not true. It looks dire.

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iability for it.

You can ask remainers on this thread to find information to argue the case for leaving, however don't expect any reply, but simply an assessment of that information: you voted to leave believing that it is what is best, so that information for arguing the case for leaving is yours and your co-voters to find and present (I'm hoping here that, sensibly, you found that information before you voted).

 

It was rhetorical I know it's unlikely, the point was that we find information to support an argument we favour, or find passages that refute the opposition.

 

 

 

Remainers are hardly forcing any choice, irrespective of being right or wrong, when they were on the losing side of the referendum outcome. Leavers forced the choice by winning the referendum. That's a simple, non-partisan, matter-of-fact observation.

 

Ok so I didn't think that through properly. Up until last year the choice was limited to one of we're in the EU.

 

---------- Post added 28-04-2017 at 09:38 ----------

 

No I don't think that because I deal with businesses every day that are at the very least planning to part relocate operations to the EU. Some more than others. For some it is minimal, others significant. The business sentiment is not good at all because there is huge uncertainty. There are going to be a lot of jobs moved away for sure.

 

We get told on here that all the economic indicators are good. It's not true. It looks dire.

 

Maybe then we should return to this conversation in 5 years to better judge the direction.

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Ok so I didn't think that through properly. Up until last year the choice was limited to one of we're in the EU.
I'm not sure I follow, sorry? :huh:

 

However binary the choice was, the information for assessing expectable consequences of either vote was there long before, and all the same.

 

Everybody knew what the score was at time T zero and before it, so everybody knew what voting to remain would entail in the short to medium term: at worst, no change; at best, the UK running in the EU at its own speed, freed from integrating policies and getting friends (Netherlands, Sweden, Ireland) to follow suit; objectively, somewhere in-between; and in the meantime and all along, enjoying a continuing recovery and continually (albeit slowly) improving public finances.

 

No-one knew before the referendum, and still no one knows now, 10 months on, what voting to leave would entail, other than an irremediable (negative-) impact upon UK (and EU) economic activity in the short to medium term at least, since the UK cannot conceivably be expected to continue trading 'as is' (as easily and profitably) with the EU, once outside of the freest form of trading agreement possible with EU member states (as a fellow member state).

 

No need of apocalyptic economical projections, world war 3 mutterings and such other nonsense by the Remain campaign, nor any need of tea leaves or crystal balls, the above was -and remains- as commonsensical as it gets.

 

Now, the above is very economy-centric (because at the end of the day, domestic and export economical activity is what pays the UK's bills, such as the NHS, pensions, new roads, education, etc, etc.) and glosses over the immigration issue (because that's always been solvable by the governments, they just continually chose not to - hardly the EU's fault). It's pragmatic, not ideological.

Maybe then we should return to this conversation in 5 years to better judge the direction.
Considering the damage already done in the past 10 months (by enduring uncertainty, perpetuated and worsened as it as been through the rethorical nonsense peddled by the government and other Eurosceptic MPs), I'm not sure sitting on one's thumb for an extra 4 years and 2 months is a viable option. If you intend to stick around these parts, that is. Edited by L00b

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How is it that we have got it so wrong?

Very poor governance,

And not set to improve in the foreseeable future.

 

If every remainer on this thread was asked to find information to argue the case for leaving, all of a sudden it would look like the healthier choice wouldn't it.

What makes you suggest that remainers are better at finding information?

You may well be right, but the only answers I can think of would likely be received as insults.

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What makes you suggest that remainers are better at finding information?

You may well be right, but the only answers I can think of would likely be received as insults.

Oh, it suddenly struck me as I read your question, Hairyloon: it's because remainers have experts :D:twisted:

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@LOOb I have no planned intentions of leaving, if the opportunity arises however and it suited our needs in life then it's not say I wouldn't.

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I wish i had learned Spanish when I was younger.

I am struggling with it at present. :help:

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What makes you suggest that remainers are better at finding information?

You may well be right, but the only answers I can think of would likely be received as insults.

 

For some maybe, I like to think I behave impeccably and haven't yet spoken unkindly. All in all I'm a nice guy, misguided perhaps, maybe wrong, but always polite :D

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Optimism doesn't have varying degrees does it? it's one or the other, the other being pessimism. One of this countries biggest failures is not taking a chance in my opinion, it's almost as though there's a reluctance to try anything new or radical. We stick with tried and tested methods, possibly this is why many of our industries have fallen by the way side or been snapped up by foreign companies.

People branch out on their own and make a success of it so why not a country. Yes, some fail, it's a chance though. The difference here is that the country has millions of employees to make it work.

 

---------- Post added 28-04-2017 at 02:09 ----------

 

 

Consider this a change then.

 

When choosing six numbers for the Lotto, or a horse at Cheltenham then "Taking a chance " is fine, all good fun.

 

When deciding upon a matter which will materially effect the lives of millions and the future generations to come however, it comes across as less than adequate.

 

Voting in the referendum I considered the options and decided to use Facts in order to reach a decision.

 

These were the facts which decided how I voted.

 

1, Despite its many faults ( which are undeniable ) the EU is the most successful and wealthiest Trade Bloc in the world.

 

2, The concern over immigration levels which many gave as a reason to leave was complete nonsense. Over 50% of immigration into the UK is from outside the EU and is therefore under the control of the British government and always has been. Therefore using it as a reason to leave makes no sense.

 

3, Another regularly voiced concern was our supposed lack of sovereignty. Since being involved with Europe from the EEC onward we have gone to war with Argentina, invaded Iraq, fought a war in Afghanistan, bombed Libya and held a parliamentary debate as to whether or not to go to war with Syria. Additionally we have had a nuclear deterrent partnership with a non EU nation, declined to join the Euro or sign up to the Schengen agreement.

 

All of which displays a healthy level of sovereignty in my view, and begs the question, what exactly do those Brexiteers who think it's a problem want us to be able to do which we are being prevented from at the moment?

 

4, The Leave campaign promised a load of nebulous advantages with regard to trade, which once we leave is going to make all our fortunes. No actual specifics were forthcoming and the facts are that Germany,France,Italy and the Netherlands are all currently more successful at exporting than we are while being member states of the EU. So what's been stopping us and what's going to change?

 

5, A countries productivity level is vital to ensure success and we aren't exactly pulling up any trees in that respect https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwib3PC28MbTAhVkIMAKHYWvAdwQFghTMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fbusiness%2Fthe-19-most-productive-countries-in-the-world-a7155311.html&usg=AFQjCNGKn4XEp4xzoav1eqbHwxKLgZPyxg what's going to change?

 

Add in that we have had one of the longest periods of peace between member nations in history and whilst not totally down to the EU it has certainly contributed to it.

 

Now those were thefacts which made up my mind to vote remain, could you please tell us the facts which decided you to vote Leave?

 

That was a momentous vote, it has effected everyone and will continue to do so into the foreseeable future.

 

Because your opinion,gut feeling, patriotism and wish to " take a chance " isn't really good enough is it,you must have some solid facts and rational thought behind such a decision, mustn't you?

Edited by Carlinate

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Just out of interest I was researching exactly how many were in the Norman army and came across this:

 

William had achieved in a short space of time a victory that would alter the face of England forever. 7500 soldiers had taken over a country of one and a half million souls. He had conquered what the Romans, Saxons and Vikings had had to fight long and hard for a piece of. He truly deserved his name of William the Conqueror. England was the richest and most cultured in Europe. Christianity was established and the people had developed a God fearing mentality. The country was admired throughout Europe as a model of how it should be. William understood this well. It was in his interests to maintain it as a viable going concern. At least, this was his plan at the start. He seemed quite prepared to leave the country to administer itself. Unfortunately, things did not quite go to plan. From the time of Alfred the Great, England had developed into something apart from the rest of Europe. This was the reason it was the subject of constant invasion. Usually it was for the country's riches. William's invasion was for totally different reasons. It was in anger and pride. During the early stages of his administration, he installed many English Lords to positions of power, or at least those who accepted him as the new king. Another dichotomy was that he had to reward his own people who had supported him on this crusade. He possibly made a huge mistake by promising riches and wealth to them. He must have calculated that to introduce too many Normans to England in a short space of time could have destabilised the country and caused an anti Norman backlash.

 

Almost the same situation we're in now, with the EU? The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Edited by natjack

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There's thousands of posts to date on here alone explaining that, but all of them were conveniently badged and trap-door'd as Project Fear, or simply ignored (and the debate swiftly shifted) as too inconvenient.

 

From the way in which we've seen the Leave campaign's arguments crumble since the referendum, it should be badged Project Fantasy.

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