Bus fares going up again from April

[Obelix 11]

You mean like the one in your signature that states that Lloyds has left?

 

But I will get back later with some details of how France and Italy had to stop subsidies on public transport because of EU competition rules.

 

Please do. We are all agog I'm sure....

[Guest busdriver1]

Concessionary revenue that can equated to significantly more than 25% of all bus revenue may not be a direct subsidy but it has been accepted for decades that ENCTS have played a significant role in maintaining rural services as they generate extra journeys that otherwise would have not taken place.

 

Support of rural services through encouraging journeys is a way of making it financially viable for the provider and therefore money is going from the taxpayer to the provider. This indirect subsidy is found all over Europe and is not illegal.

 

In any case ENCTS was just one example of many in response to the comment that "...under current EU rules its is unlikely that public transport can be subsidised in the UK." which is obviously not the case here or anywhere else in the EU.

 

Firstly encts has not been around for decades.

Secondly, a bus that is full of encts holders will run at a loss, services have been cancelled for this very reason.

How is paying for a person to travel on a bus a subsidy? That is one of the most bizarre statements I have ever heard.

[apelike 10]

Please do. We are all agog I'm sure....

 

I ask now if you will remove the porkie in your signature as I'm sure all know that Lloyds have not left. I'm sure people will also be agog waiting for that as well.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

Firstly encts has not been around for decades.

Secondly, a bus that is full of encts holders will run at a loss, services have been cancelled for this very reason.

How is paying for a person to travel on a bus a subsidy? That is one of the most bizarre statements I have ever heard.

 

Firstly: Under the Transport Act 1985, local authorities have discretionary powers to provide concessionary travel for elderly and disabled groups. Most provided half-fares on off-peak buses within the local area. Although this is largely superseded by subsequent legislation, the power to provide local enhancements, such as concessionary rail travel

and taxi tokens, continues.

• The Transport Act 2000 introduced a national minimum standard across England and Wales for concessionary travel. It imposed a duty on district and unitary councils to provide half-fare travel on buses within the council area between 9.30 and 23.00 and all day on Saturday, Sunday and bank holidays. A concessionary travel pass had to be issued at no charge.

• From April 2006, the national standard was extended to provide free off-peak bus travel in the local area. The additional cost of free local concessionary travel is £350m pa for England, (£450m for UK).

• From April 2008 around 11 million older and disabled people will be entitled to free off-peak bus travel throughout England, as a result of the Concessionary Bus Travel Act 2007.

Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport, House of Commons 2008

 

Secondly- from my post "...that ENCTS have played a significant role in maintaining rural services as they generate extra journeys that otherwise would have not taken place."

[Guest busdriver1]

Firstly: Under the Transport Act 1985, local authorities have discretionary powers to provide concessionary travel for elderly and disabled groups. Most provided half-fares on off-peak buses within the local area. Although this is largely superseded by subsequent legislation, the power to provide local enhancements, such as concessionary rail travel

and taxi tokens, continues.

• The Transport Act 2000 introduced a national minimum standard across England and Wales for concessionary travel. It imposed a duty on district and unitary councils to provide half-fare travel on buses within the council area between 9.30 and 23.00 and all day on Saturday, Sunday and bank holidays. A concessionary travel pass had to be issued at no charge.

• From April 2006, the national standard was extended to provide free off-peak bus travel in the local area. The additional cost of free local concessionary travel is £350m pa for England, (£450m for UK).

• From April 2008 around 11 million older and disabled people will be entitled to free off-peak bus travel throughout England, as a result of the Concessionary Bus Travel Act 2007.

Ticketing and Concessionary Travel on Public Transport, House of Commons 2008

 

Secondly- from my post "...that ENCTS have played a significant role in maintaining rural services as they generate extra journeys that otherwise would have not taken place."

I never said it did not generate extra journeys from freeloaders, what I am saying is that those journeys are not paid for at anywhere near the cost of provision but bus companies are obliged to convey those passengers at the reduced and loss making rate paid by the government via the local authorities.

I repeat, this has directly led to the loss of services in the long term as a bus full of encts passengers will run at a loss.

End result will be, less journeys will be made as the services will not be there to use.

[apelike 10]

what I am saying is that those journeys are not paid for at anywhere near the cost of provision but bus companies are obliged to convey those passengers at the reduced and loss making rate paid by the government via the local authorities.

 

I'm not sure the economics of that weighs up. If a bus, tram or train operates on a route and is less than half empty when it runs then adding passengers on that route does not cost much more. This is what often happens during off peak hours when free bus passes are used so its hardly a loss to the bus company. What is happening in effect is that the government are subsidising bus companies to operate.

 

I travel mainly by tram and my pass allows me free travel after 9:30. In most cases when I use it after 10:00 the tram probably has around 20% of its normal capacity. It would be more efficient to have longer waits between trams and instead of the 10minute wait make it 15 or even 20. Same should also go for buses in off-peak hours. It would also be better if there were restrictions between 4:30 and 6:00 to help ease overcrowding.

[Guest sibon]

I ask now if you will remove the porkie in your signature as I'm sure all know that Lloyds have not left. I'm sure people will also be agog waiting for that as well.

 

I'm not usually an Obelix defender, as I'm sure that he will testify. This time however, he's correct.

 

Lloyds have announced plans to quit the London Market. It will take a year or two, but they are doing it right now. They won't be the last either.

 

You can stick your fingers in your ears and shout LaLaLa as loudly as you like. It won't stop the inflation and loss of GDP that are beginning to visit us as a consequence of Brexit.

 

All the fault of you and your mates too. I do hope that you are proud.

[Guest busdriver1]

I'm not sure the economics of that weighs up. If a bus, tram or train operates on a route and is less than half empty when it runs then adding passengers on that route does not cost much more. This is what often happens during off peak hours when free bus passes are used so its hardly a loss to the bus company. What is happening in effect is that the government are subsidising bus companies to operate.

 

I travel mainly by tram and my pass allows me free travel after 9:30. In most cases when I use it after 10:00 the tram probably has around 20% of its normal capacity. It would be more efficient to have longer waits between trams and instead of the 10minute wait make it 15 or even 20. Same should also go for buses in off-peak hours. It would also be better if there were restrictions between 4:30 and 6:00 to help ease overcrowding.

 

Forget City routes they are only marginally affected, trust me you do not subsidise off peak travel, the peak journeys do that. Always has been and always will be. The whole point here is that it is illegal to run a bus service at a loss! At one time this was applied to the letter and individual journeys were cancelled as a result. The pittance the bus companies are paid for carrying passes means off peak when more passengers are encts pass holders used to break even, they now lose money. If the older stricter rules still applied they would have to be withdrawn. There may be 10% increase in passengers but a 40% reduction in payment per pass means they are losing more yet carrying more.

Try looking at buses into the Peak District in summer or lightly loaded rural services. One operator in Lincolnshire recently curtailed all his services as all he carried was pensioners and the year on year reductions in the re-imbursment of the concession payment mean his takings overall have gone down by 30% in 3 years yet he is carrying more passengers and all his overheads have gone up. The service has not been replaced as no other operator was prepared to take it on. 3 rural villages now have no bus service. As for the Tram, using your pass on there is a direct subsidy to Stagecoach as there is no obligation to offer tram travel to encts pass holders. If they went by bus as the government intended the bus companies would get the revenue that is rightly theirs and (getting back to the main thread) may be able to hold fares down.

Edited April 3, 2017 by busdriver1

[apelike 10]

I'm not usually an Obelix defender, as I'm sure that he will testify. This time however, he's correct.

 

Lloyds have announced plans to quit the London Market. It will take a year or two, but they are doing it right now. They won't be the last either.

 

I'm sorry to spoil it (take fingers out of ears) but last time I re-checked only a few hours ago, Lloyds had only announce that they will be moving PART of their operation to Brussels relocating around 100 jobs. As you can see its totally different from telling porkies about Lloyds leaving.

 

Here is an actual link from Lloyds to back that up.

 

https://www.lloyds.com/news-and-insight/press-centre/press-releases/2017/03/lloyds-to-open-eu-insurance-company

 

 

You can stick your fingers in your ears and shout LaLaLa as loudly as you like. It won't stop the inflation and loss of GDP that are beginning to visit us as a consequence of Brexit.

 

All the fault of you and your mates too. I do hope that you are proud.

 

I am proud, proud to be British and also proud that we can also have a democracy that allows us to vote. But this really has nothing to do with fares going up. Oh hang on, EU competition rules state we have to apply to them to allow to subsidise transport.

 

---------- Post added 04-04-2017 at 02:25 ----------

 

There may be 10% increase in passengers but a 40% reduction in payment per pass means they are losing more yet carrying more.

 

You cant lose more by carrying more for the simple reason it still cost the same to operate regardless. The only way you can lose (on the books) is if you swap subsidies for potential full fare paying passengers, and this is exactly what is happening.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

As for the Tram, using your pass on there is a direct subsidy to Stagecoach as tYorkshire Passenger Transport Concessionary Travel Scheme is valid on Supertram. here is no obligation to offer tram travel to encts pass holders.

 

The South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Concessionary Travel Scheme applied to buses, trains and trams. When Stagecoach were negotiating for the contract to operate Supertram they claimed that the Yorkshire Passenger Transport Concessionary fare was unfair competition and because of the consequent loss of business. This was accepted and written into the contract. The wording of the contract at the time that the Concessionary Travel Scheme became part of ENCTS prevented any change. It is very unlikely that Stagecoach will change this contract before it ends in 2024.

 

So "...using your pass on there(Stagecoach Supertram) is a direct subsidy to Stagecoach..." as is using your pass on buses a direct subsidy to Stagecoach, First etc. buses.

 

Politics, negotiation and money will decide what happens after 2024. No ENCTS accepted? No ENCTS from outside SY accepted. Agreed reduced fares?

Reduced fares decided by operator? No reduced fare?

[Guest busdriver1]

 

You cant lose more by carrying more for the simple reason it still cost the same to operate regardless. The only way you can lose (on the books) is if you swap subsidies for potential full fare paying passengers, and this is exactly what is happening.

 

The mathematics are really quite simple.

In 2010 You have a bus with 25 passengers on. 5 pay the full fare of £2 and 20 have encts passes that are paid at £0.50p takings for trip = £20.

 

In 2017 you have a bus with 35 passengers on 5 Pay the fare of £2.20 and 30 have encts passes that are now paid at £0.25p per trip Total per trip is now £18.50

 

Then take into account that the FDR or BSOG is now paid by government to the SYPTE to distribute to the operators and they are retaining it instead to "carry out improvements to the infrastructure" that takes about 10% of the operators margins as well thats how you lose money.

 

---------- Post added 04-04-2017 at 09:15 ----------

 

The South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Concessionary Travel Scheme applied to buses, trains and trams. When Stagecoach were negotiating for the contract to operate Supertram they claimed that the Yorkshire Passenger Transport Concessionary fare was unfair competition and because of the consequent loss of business. This was accepted and written into the contract. The wording of the contract at the time that the Concessionary Travel Scheme became part of ENCTS prevented any change. It is very unlikely that Stagecoach will change this contract before it ends in 2024.

 

So "...using your pass on there(Stagecoach Supertram) is a direct subsidy to Stagecoach..." as is using your pass on buses a direct subsidy to Stagecoach, First etc. buses.

 

Politics, negotiation and money will decide what happens after 2024. No ENCTS accepted? No ENCTS from outside SY accepted. Agreed reduced fares?

Reduced fares decided by operator? No reduced fare?

You are deliberately choosing to ignore that fact that the ENCTS should not be available on the tram but should be available on the bus, after all it is a bus pass. When used on a bus, its proper function, it is used a payment for a service delivered. When used on the tram, it is used as payment for an extra and non essential service that should be provided by the bus so is therefore a subsidy by the back door.

By the end of the current franchise for the tram I doubt very much that encts will exist, at least in its current form so deliberations on that are moot.

 

The south Yorkshire Concessionary transport scheme did not become encts, it was replaced by it. It was at this point SYPTE once again failed us all and made it available on the tram instead of applying the rules sent down by Government. Mind it is SYPTE and Stagecoach so who knows, maybe a good christmas dinner was provided in return??

[Annie Bynnol 612]

The mathematics are really quite simple.

In 2010 You have a bus with 25 passengers on. 5 pay the full fare of £2 and 20 have encts passes that are paid at £0.50p takings for trip = £20.

 

In 2017 you have a bus with 35 passengers on 5 Pay the fare of £2.20 and 30 have encts passes that are now paid at £0.25p per trip Total per trip is now £18.50

 

Then take into account that the FDR or BSOG is now paid by government to the SYPTE to distribute to the operators and they are retaining it instead to "carry out improvements to the infrastructure" that takes about 10% of the operators margins as well thats how you lose money.

 

---------- Post added 04-04-2017 at 09:15 ----------

 

You are deliberately choosing to ignore that fact that the ENCTS should not be available on the tram but should be available on the bus, after all it is a bus pass. When used on a bus, its proper function, it is used a payment for a service delivered. When used on the tram, it is used as payment for an extra and non essential service that should be provided by the bus so is therefore a subsidy by the back door.

By the end of the current franchise for the tram I doubt very much that encts will exist, at least in its current form so deliberations on that are moot.

 

The south Yorkshire Concessionary transport scheme did not become encts, it was replaced by it. It was at this point SYPTE once again failed us all and made it available on the tram instead of applying the rules sent down by Government. Mind it is SYPTE and Stagecoach so who knows, maybe a good christmas dinner was provided in return??

 

Simple maths require some numbers to start with.

The source of these numbers?

Comparisons require one variable to change not two.

The average reimbursement in 2011 was 70% of the average adult fare plus extra costs

paid in lump sums to cover management and provision of more buses to cover peak in demand.

 

In reality the maths is not simple.

There are four different models used by the Government called the Concessionary bus travel reimbursement calculator.

 

Simply the calculation is:

 

Revenue Forgone

Observed Concessionary Journeys

Average Fare Forgone (£)

Reimbursement Factor (%)

Additional Costs

Generation Factor (%)

Marginal Operating Costs (£ per trip)

Total Marginal Operating Costs (£)

Scheme Administration Costs (£)

Total Marginal Capacity Costs (£)

PVR Costs (£)

Inflation

 

Local Authorities are also allowed to make deals on top for reasons specific to that area and it is perfectly legal and most would say preferable for them to decide in agreement with operators (as in SY). Stagecoach Bus are very aggressive negotiators and are fully aware of how to get the best of a local deal in the national climate of austerity.