Let's put the under 21 ones on the streets who cares eh?

[onewheeldave 22]

Firstly apprentice wages:

https://www.gov.uk/apprenticeships-guide/pay-and-conditions

 

As I say, minimum amounts set by government. Not made up by employers. Not at the mercy of some evil scrooge character. NATIONAL MINIMUM.

 

Ahhh. The poor dears. £900 a month all without any tax deductions - how on earth do they cope.

 

From your link

 

The current minimum wage rate for an apprentice is £3.40 per hour.

£3.40x40hrsx4=£544

 

---------- Post added 06-03-2017 at 19:52 ----------

 

 

If that's not enough to live on, they should stay at home until they can afford properly to move out.

 

They're from the care system, they have no home.

[Anna B 1,414]

Ahhh. The poor dears. £900 a month all without any tax deductions - how on earth do they cope.

 

They have two choices dont they. Stay at home until they earn a full wage or find a bedsit/shared room/one bed in their price range.

 

Not impossible at all. We have all been there and all had to start somewhere. Its tough but that's life.

 

You ask how to they find a place to live, eat and get transport? Exactly the same as everyone else in the working world.

 

Anyway, since you have seemingly given up on bothering to read the rest of my post, I am going to give up with you.

 

My point is clear. If you are choosing to ignore reading through it because im saying something you dont agree with, that's entirely your choice.

 

Just out of interest ECCOnoob, did you know that lawyers, solicitors, and Judges are among the professions most likely to be replaced with AI in the next 10 - 20 years..... It's going to save a lot of money. Just sayin'.....

[ECCOnoob 1,050]

From your link

 

 

£3.40x40hrsx4=£544

 

---------- Post added 06-03-2017 at 19:52 ----------

 

They're from the care system, they have no home.

 

I stand corrected. My mistake - looking at the wrong column. £544 it is.

The two choices still stand.

 

So what if SOME of them are from the care system? Not everyone from care is totally incapable of living their life like a competent grown adult. Those who choose to leave the system face the same circumstances as any other young adult joining the working world. Those who remain unable or volnerable adults are still protected parties within the exemptions.

 

---------- Post added 06-03-2017 at 20:07 ----------

 

Just out of interest ECCOnoob, did you know that lawyers, solicitors, and Judges are among the professions most likely to be replaced with AI in the next 10 - 20 years..... It's going to save a lot of money. Just sayin'.....

 

Is that supposed to be a treat? You think I have not been out of work for periods in my life.

 

Incidentally Anna, the talk of lawyers losing their careers due to advances in technology has been thrown around since the introduction of computers and semi-automatic case management systems 20+ years ago. The reality is very different.

 

I am still working in a profession where the courts still cannot accept emailed documents over a certain size, solicitors offices refuse to accept service by fax and email and judges demand multiple copies of paper bundles for their hearings. We are still using pink tape, wax seals, certified and stamped copies of pages. We have only very recently started to use electronic disclosure (and even then only in extreme cases).

 

Funding and costs is far more of a risk to my profession but that will just lead to lawyers working in different types of organisations away from a ye olde solicitors offices.

 

I'm really not sure what you are trying to score points on but I am not playing ball. Dont start with personal digs just because I am raising debate that you dont agree with.

Edited March 6, 2017 by ECCOnoob

[sgtkate 10]

I stand corrected. My mistake - looking at the wrong column. £544 it is.

The two choices still stand.

 

 

There is absolutely no way someone could run a household on £544 a month. Looking at rightmove for the entirety of Sheffield and ignoring the ones for parking (unless you expect someone to live in a garage?) the cheapest place is £75 a week or £300 a month. Add in basic bills, electricity, gas, water etc. I won't even bother with a phone line or internet or mobile but god knows how this hypothetical person is going to find out about any work without it but there we go...so even if I underestimate lets say £50 a month? So we are up to £350, add in a monthly bus pass at £53 so it's now £400. Food, even budgeting I doubt you can eat a decent diet for under £35 a week, so that's us up to £540. Leaving a grand sum of £4 a month for luxuries. Sorted.

[onewheeldave 22]

So what if SOME of them are from the care system? Not everyone from care is totally incapable of living their life like a competent grown adult

 

It was in response to your -

 

If that's not enough to live on, they should stay at home until they can afford properly to move out.

Those from the care system do not have the option of 'staying at home'.

 

---------- Post added 06-03-2017 at 22:30 ----------

 

Is that supposed to be a treat? You think I have not been out of work for periods in my life.

 

Threat?

 

Just out of interest ECCOnoob, did you know that lawyers, solicitors, and Judges are among the professions most likely to be replaced with AI in the next 10 - 20 years..... It's going to save a lot of money. Just sayin'.....

ECCOnoobs a lawyer?!?

 

Seems to have a disturbing lack of eye for detail...

I stand corrected. My mistake - looking at the wrong column. £544 it is.

along with his/her several slips when suggesting those coming out of care can 'stay at home'

 

...hope he/she doesn't make slips like that when it comes to their clients cases.

[ECCOnoob 1,050]

It was in response to your -

 

Those from the care system do not have the option of 'staying at home'.

 

---------- Post added 06-03-2017 at 22:30 ----------

 

 

Threat?

 

 

ECCOnoobs a lawyer?!?

 

Seems to have a disturbing lack of eye for detail...

along with his/her several slips when suggesting those coming out of care can 'stay at home'

 

...hope he/she doesn't make slips like that when it comes to their clients cases.

 

Oh my god. Stop the world. I read the wrong line of figures whilst making a casual comment on an internet discussion forum. Do you really think I give so much of a toss. I made a mistake. It was corrected when pointed out to me. Get over it.

 

The care system is not going to push someone out who they deem has no ability to earn their own means and no job to support themselves in their own accommodation. As I have said several times now, if they CHOOSE to leave the system and dont have any means to do so, that's their choice and their issue to deal with.

 

I have also said several times now that there are exemptions to the policy. These exemptions are there to keep protecting those genuinely vulnerable or unable to manage to find accommodation through no fault of their own. If people actually bother to read my FULL responses I have made this clear.

 

If people actually bothered to read the full details I have provided in the link they would see that apprentices only get the lowest monies whilst they are either under 19 years old or for those 19+ years old, in the very first apprentice year only. After that, they will be paid the usual National Minimum Wage and therefore will be in the same circumstances as those other 18-20 yr olds or 21-24 yr olds earning either £5.55 or £6.95 per hour. Since you are such an expert you can do your own maths on those.

 

Now, anyone else going to have a pop about my career and ability to get this thread inevitably closed or shall we actually carry on with the topic being debated.

[Cyclone 10]

Firstly apprentice wages:

https://www.gov.uk/apprenticeships-guide/pay-and-conditions

 

As I say, minimum amounts set by government. Not made up by employers. Not at the mercy of some evil scrooge character. NATIONAL MINIMUM.

 

If that's not enough to live on, they should stay at home until they can afford properly to move out.

 

Secondly, if someone is in work earning full wages and "still cannot afford a place to live" then they have a problem. What the hell are they spending their money on? How on earth do the rest of the working population cope? As I have said before, if someone is genuinely in such a financial mess then further questions need to be asked.

The 'rest' of the population, ie those over 22, have access to HB. Why should someone 18 - 21 not have the same access, does something magical change at the 22nd birthday?

 

Unlike many older adults in the working world, the 18-21 year olds affected by any cuts will have a family home. Their parents and guardians are still supporting them up to any point they choose to leave (and since they choose to bring them into the world they should do).

Whereas 22 year olds have no family, I well remember my family and parental home disappearing on my 22nd birthday.

Simple message for the younger generation. If you choose to move out and find your own place to live - get a job and ensure you work properly to pay for it. For those few remaining who insist on moving out early without sufficient means - that's their problem.

18 - 21 is somehow early now, and 22 is not.

 

No abled bodied, fully competent, healthy young individual with no specialist exemptions fresh from mandatory education should be in a position to immediately demand the state supports their lifestyle.

The lifestyle of not living on the streets. You're right, that's outrageous, everyone should expect to live on the streets if they can't find work.

 

Basically you're agreeing with the government that all 18 - 21 year olds have somewhere else they can sleep, whereas 22 year olds for some reason don't.

And that for reasons of age we will offer certain support only to those over 22, despite 18 being legal adulthood in this country.

 

---------- Post added 07-03-2017 at 07:46 ----------

 

Oif they CHOOSE to leave the system and dont have any means to do so, that's their choice and their issue to deal with.

 

A system that fails most of those in it, leading them to distrust and hate it.

 

Don't pretend that it will be a surprise if they leave the system as soon as they can.

[Bob Arctor 11]

Oh my god. Stop the world. I read the wrong line of figures whilst making a casual comment on an internet discussion forum. Do you really think I give so much of a toss. I made a mistake. It was corrected when pointed out to me. Get over it.

 

The care system is not going to push someone out who they deem has no ability to earn their own means and no job to support themselves in their own accommodation. As I have said several times now, if they CHOOSE to leave the system and dont have any means to do so, that's their choice and their issue to deal with.

 

I have also said several times now that there are exemptions to the policy. These exemptions are there to keep protecting those genuinely vulnerable or unable to manage to find accommodation through no fault of their own. If people actually bother to read my FULL responses I have made this clear.

 

If people actually bothered to read the full details I have provided in the link they would see that apprentices only get the lowest monies whilst they are either under 19 years old or for those 19+ years old, in the very first apprentice year only. After that, they will be paid the usual National Minimum Wage and therefore will be in the same circumstances as those other 18-20 yr olds or 21-24 yr olds earning either £5.55 or £6.95 per hour. Since you are such an expert you can do your own maths on those.

 

Now, anyone else going to have a pop about my career and ability to get this thread inevitably closed or shall we actually carry on with the topic being debated.

 

It's not the first time though is it? Remember when you wrongly called people on ESA WRAG "Jobseekers" when you were supporting the cut on their allowance? And the incorrect claim you made about mobility PIP, and the time you gave the incorrect legal definition of homelessness? Which is fine in itself, none of us can be expected to know everything, but all of those errors were made in the act of of you giving support to policies which cause harm to some people, so you can expect to get some flack for them because it looks like you have decided to support those policies come what may and without having an understanding of how they affect others.

[harvey19 541]

I stand corrected. My mistake - looking at the wrong column. £544 it is.

The two choices still stand.

 

So what if SOME of them are from the care system? Not everyone from care is totally incapable of living their life like a competent grown adult. Those who choose to leave the system face the same circumstances as any other young adult joining the working world. Those who remain unable or volnerable adults are still protected parties within the exemptions.

 

---------- Post added 06-03-2017 at 20:07 ----------

 

 

Is that supposed to be a treat? You think I have not been out of work for periods in my life.

 

Incidentally Anna, the talk of lawyers losing their careers due to advances in technology has been thrown around since the introduction of computers and semi-automatic case management systems 20+ years ago. The reality is very different.

 

I am still working in a profession where the courts still cannot accept emailed documents over a certain size, solicitors offices refuse to accept service by fax and email and judges demand multiple copies of paper bundles for their hearings. We are still using pink tape, wax seals, certified and stamped copies of pages. We have only very recently started to use electronic disclosure (and even then only in extreme cases).

 

Funding and costs is far more of a risk to my profession but that will just lead to lawyers working in different types of organisations away from a ye olde solicitors offices.

 

I'm really not sure what you are trying to score points on but I am not playing ball. Dont start with personal digs just because I am raising debate that you dont agree with.

How many years ago since "paperless" files were supposed to be introduced

?

[Anna B 1,414]

How many years ago since "paperless" files were supposed to be introduced

?

 

Let's face it, a profession that still ponces about in wigs and is more concerned with form and procedure m'lud, rather than common sense is hardly going to embrace change. They'll have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

[sgtkate 10]

Let's face it, a profession that still ponces about in wigs and is more concerned with form and procedure m'lud, rather than common sense is hardly going to embrace change. They'll have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

 

And thinks living off £544 a month is a-ok. Perhaps he'd like to give that a try for a month and report back.

[ECCOnoob 1,050]

And thinks living off £544 a month is a-ok. Perhaps he'd like to give that a try for a month and report back.

 

Jesus. Its like talking to a brick wall.

 

Firstly, for a 18/19 apprentice in their first ever job since leaving education £544 is perfectly adequate. Its not a new concept. It costs employers money to train people and take them on with little immediate return until they have developed suitable skills.

 

I will concede that probably does not apply to the most basic of work in entry level jobs roles - however that is a decision someone has to make when they sign up.

 

How many more times do I have to say this on this thread. We are not talking about the entire population of 18-24 year olds. Nor is there any realism in this wild assumption people have that suddenly at the age of 18 years everyone is kicked out of their home and requires their own place.

 

I have never mentioned in my posts about "22 year olds" not having family to turn to. I have said the words "older". 22 is the start point. Obviously ANYTHING policy wise has to have a start and end point. Perhaps it should be 25 or 30. That seems the be the modern trend as to when people start to move out these days.

 

The point is simple and I have repeatedly said it. For those few remaining people who are not:

 

• A protected person with a genuine homeless need
  
• A vulnerable person who requires ongoing care provision
  
• A person from a relationship breakdown or broken family group who has no accommodation
  
• OR
  
• A person who has been working for six months prior
  
• OR a person who has been earning NMW at least 16 hours a week
  

 

They have a choice. Fund your own accommodation or stay put until you can afford to do so.

 

Oh, and just for the record. My first job as a clerk was pre-NMW of any kind. I was surviving on around £460 a month. Lets quit this childish crap as if I have never had to live on a low income in my life. I still managed to pay my £100 shared house rent each month and feed myself during my training period before I earned a higher wage and could live more comfortably.

 

People up and down the country do it their entire lives. Its part of the working life. We all start somewhere and not all of us can just sit there waiting for the state to do it for us.

 

Now I am not wasting my time any more. My opinion is what it is. If you don't like it, fine. Counter it with a different one. But the childish personal digs about my profession, knowledge and ability can cease now.

Edited March 7, 2017 by ECCOnoob