Tram Trains thread

[Jeffrey Shaw 90]

As it is a government job, there is no reason to think that the work will stop. Especially as they have pledged that all public sector work will be paid directly.

 

By all accounts from those in the know, all the delays to this project have been down to network rail.

"Sorry. The multi-million pound project that you are awaiting has been delayed. An alternative wheelbarrow service is available."

[Andy C 85]

All the trackwork and 95% of the wiring and platform work is complete.

Signalling-not sure, testing is to be done.

The Carillion team on this project has plenty of essential and profitable work to do and no doubt will be kept going by the administrators.

 

The National train timetable includes TrainTram running from May.

 

The finishing of tram train work is indeed a protected project.

 

The tram has paths to Parkgate from May for driver training and vehicle/system testing, new service is due to launch in the Autumn.

 

Incidentally Parkgate to Meadowhall via Rotherham Central in 10 minutes compares well to the journey by road doesn't it..

[Guest busdriver1]

The finishing of tram train work is indeed a protected project.

 

The tram has paths to Parkgate from May for driver training and vehicle/system testing, new service is due to launch in the Autumn.

 

Incidentally Parkgate to Meadowhall via Rotherham Central in 10 minutes compares well to the journey by road doesn't it..

 

Depends on where you are going at Meadowhall. A 10 minute walk with luggage will knock the shine off if you are travelling onwards.

[darylslinn 10]

I still can't get my head around the single track between Tinsley / Meadowhall South and around the back of Magna before it opens out to double track again.... Does this have a bearing on frequency of service ?

[criscandle 10]

Been on one 3 times now Tram Trains feel like old bone rattlers not very smooth

[Annie Bynnol 612]

Been on one 3 times now Tram Trains feel like old bone rattlers not very smooth

 

Yes they are and you can here them coming from further away.

 

One of the most critical part of this trial are issues to do with all aspects of ride quality- which includes comfort.

Tram tracks and tram tyres have a different shape to ones on the railway. Because of higher speeds and longer straight sections, ordinary trams begin to roll and pitch more, this is dangerous (Croydon) at junctions and causes expensive wear. On the railway a tram would roll and pitch even more as the wheel flanges are too shallow-it would be catastrophic.

To reduce the roll and pitch, speed restriction was the traditional solution. On tram train, suspension stiffness, electronic control, special frog and guard rails and tyre shape will be tested.

 

If they cannot get this bit right in terms of costs, comfort and safety the route will be scrapped and the trial will end. The new trams will be converted into tram only operation.

All the new tram trains have ordinary tram wheels which makes this observation worrisome.

Blackpool removed its most modern set of trams (1960's) from normal service for this and other problems The Advanced Passenger Train was abandoned for similar reasons in the 1980's -famously invited reporters felt seasick.

[pushtotalk 10]

The service will run for 5 years after launch. Two years is the initial trial period but Supertram are contractually committed to operate for at least 5 years. They have built this into their business so to end sooner than 5 years based on ride quality would be a) subjective for a start (how is ride quality determined for example?), b) IMO ludicrous as a decision point as the service is about far more than ride and c) would cost dearly in terms of compensating Supertram for potential losses they’d incur through lost revenue, surplus staff costs...

 

The trial (which is essentially all about learning) is based on far more than ride quality - eg: cost effectiveness to build, value for money to operate compared to conventional rail and alternative solutions for urban connectivity amongst others.

[pss60 10]

The service will run for 5 years after launch. Two years is the initial trial period but Supertram are contractually committed to operate for at least 5 years. They have built this into their business so to end sooner than 5 years based on ride quality would be a) subjective for a start (how is ride quality determined for example?), b) IMO ludicrous as a decision point as the service is about far more than ride and c) would cost dearly in terms of compensating Supertram for potential losses they’d incur through lost revenue, surplus staff costs...

 

The trial (which is essentially all about learning) is based on far more than ride quality - eg: cost effectiveness to build, value for money to operate compared to conventional rail and alternative solutions for urban connectivity amongst others.

If thats the case, it will probably be shut down in 2024. This isn't the South East (or Greater Manchester or Edinburgh).

[hackey lad 3,955]

Been on one 3 times now Tram Trains feel like old bone rattlers not very smooth

 

Got to agree with you . Was on one the other day and noticed how noisy and bumpy it was , especially on Ridgeway Rd

[Annie Bynnol 612]

The service will run for 5 years after launch. Two years is the initial trial period but Supertram are contractually committed to operate for at least 5 years. They have built this into their business so to end sooner than 5 years based on ride quality would be a) subjective for a start (how is ride quality determined for example?), b) IMO ludicrous as a decision point as the service is about far more than ride and c) would cost dearly in terms of compensating Supertram for potential losses they’d incur through lost revenue, surplus staff costs...

 

The trial (which is essentially all about learning) is based on far more than ride quality - eg: cost effectiveness to build, value for money to operate compared to conventional rail and alternative solutions for urban connectivity amongst others.

 

As I said ride quality covers many aspects of railway engineering- including comfort and is critical to the success or otherwise of the trial.

All can be measured quantitively and acceptable levels of ride quality must be obtained.

Simply put- ride quality effects costs and safety. Poor riding quality increases wear and so increases vehicle and track failure If poor ride quality cannot be designed out then the trial will end at the point where revenue falls or extra costs and/or safety limits are exceeded. There are countless examples of this in transport history.

 

The current Stagecoach operating franchise ends in 2024 and neither they or the owners have any obligation to run the new tram trains or route beyond the two year trial.

[Hook 10]

As I said ride quality covers many aspects of railway engineering- including comfort and is critical to the success or otherwise of the trial.

All can be measured quantitively and acceptable levels of ride quality must be obtained.

Simply put- ride quality effects costs and safety. Poor riding quality increases wear and so increases vehicle and track failure If poor ride quality cannot be designed out then the trial will end at the point where revenue falls or extra costs and/or safety limits are exceeded. There are countless examples of this in transport history.

 

The current Stagecoach operating franchise ends in 2024 and neither they or the owners have any obligation to run the new tram trains or route beyond the two year trial.

 

Wrong. Supertram, as previously mentioned, are contractually required to operate the service for five years.

 

It is also not a franchise, but a concession.

[Arthur Ritus 30]

Yes they are and you can here them coming from further away.

 

One of the most critical part of this trial are issues to do with all aspects of ride quality- which includes comfort.

Tram tracks and tram tyres have a different shape to ones on the railway. Because of higher speeds and longer straight sections, ordinary trams begin to roll and pitch more, this is dangerous (Croydon) at junctions and causes expensive wear. On the railway a tram would roll and pitch even more as the wheel flanges are too shallow-it would be catastrophic.

To reduce the roll and pitch, speed restriction was the traditional solution. On tram train, suspension stiffness, electronic control, special frog and guard rails and tyre shape will be tested.

 

If they cannot get this bit right in terms of costs, comfort and safety the route will be scrapped and the trial will end. The new trams will be converted into tram only operation.

All the new tram trains have ordinary tram wheels which makes this observation worrisome.

Blackpool removed its most modern set of trams (1960's) from normal service for this and other problems The Advanced Passenger Train was abandoned for similar reasons in the 1980's -famously invited reporters felt seasick.

 

Tram wheel flanges are only a slightly smaller than train wheel flanges and cannot really be blamed for Croydon, 50mph around that tight a bend which should have been 12mph would have probably had the same effect if had got train wheels.

 

The tramtrain wheels have to have the same diameter and thickness around the outer rim area as tram wheels as they run in the bottom of the channel through points and crossings on road sections. They have a thicker width nearer the axle where clear of the channel to engage on the guides on railway section points which have had to be raised to work.

 

The "sea sickness" alleged by the reporters on the apt was more to do with the excessive alcohol and rich food they were given, to, well, help make them "happier" with the experience and was typically over indulged. Other tilting carriages based on its design have had no such complaints, helped not having the "made in Britain" label especially BR.

 

The new tramtrains are a lot heavier at 66.1t as opposed to the old trams at 46.5t which account for more noise and vibration but shouldn't make the ride less smooth. Perhaps some more development on the suspension or drive gear?

 

---------- Post added 24-01-2018 at 20:27 ----------

 

It will never be a very good true test as no voltage switch over will done, a crucial part really.

 

It would have been interesting to see a tram coast from leaving the 750vdc until picking up the 25kvac. I suppose the 25kv would be brought along the tram branch so far, possibly to a straight bit so if the tram got stuck between supplies at least it wouldn't have its nose sticking out onto a railway line.

 

I can just hear the tanoy " would all passengers please get off and give us a push", certainly wouldn't recommend the driver climbing on the roof and putting a couple of jumpleads on the overhead lines.

 

The have batteries perhaps they could move it the short distance required, any tram engineers know?

 

I doubt the 25kv gear will stay for long on the sheffield trams, who wants to pay to maintain something not used. First time the selection gear fails it will be bypassed as a temporary measure to be fixed as needed. Lets sell it now as new, we'll get more for it.