Why do Sheffield people pronounce Greenhill, as "Grenill"?

[t020 11]

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I just got back to this thread after a few days to see that you are getting slightly civil and agreeable; even your open contempt for any other veiw than your own is less obvious. Perhaps you're realising that most of the posters are spending huge amounts of time replying to your semi - coherent arguments. -- And getting nowhere.

Just to correct your notion, I am not a 70 year old nobody as you suggest, but a 38 y.o. professional living on the borders of Sheff/Derbyshire.

So, to reply;-

 

 

Since when has 'spelling' had anything to do with pronunciation? And, though I'm sure that your written english is impeccable, 'AFTERALL' is TWO words. How foolish of me, you missed the space bar. Yeh -- right.

 

The simple point that I'm making is that the roots of the word 'Grenn'll', were arrived at many centuries ago BEFORE the written word EXISTED.Well before the monks and their greek/latin.

It began as a word that was probably sounded differently even between settlements that were just a few miles from each other. The language has imput from so many other nations that pronunciation is never a hard and fast absolute accents merely add grist to the phonetic mill.

 

As so many others have pointed out to you, differences in accent are clearly discernable to others if not ourselves. So - as perfectly neutral as you may believe your accent to be, sorry, you sound like a northern dipstick to someone a few dozen miles away.

 

I've said already that the response I get from people in the south who have never met me before is often "you don't sound like a northerner", so I don't know how you come to that conclusion.

 

Also, with regards the pronunciation of Greenhill, I think you'd struggle to find anyone under the age of 25 in most parts of Sheffield, particularly the south west, that would pronounce it as "Grennell". Language evolves and this pronunciation seems to be almost obsolete - just give it another generation and nobody will pronounce it in that way.

 

PS. I hope the 4 hour and 34 minute response time was satisfactory for you.

[SUPERTYKE 10]

t020.

You are infuriatingly selective in your choices of which parts of the argument that you reply to. Ignoring the parts that you are obviously wrong on.

 

To go back;- I said that 'an obvious and common reason that people choose to pronounce their area name as poshly as possible is to elevate their area'.[and consequently their personal status.]

I know this to be human nature; if and when, you aquire some wisdom you too may find this to be the case. I'm attacking no-one, merely making an observation.

 

YOU said that, 'because Grenn'll is spelled, Greenhill, it should therefore be pronounced, Green-Hill, and that those who pronounce it that way [inferring it to be the, 'proper' way,] do so because they naturally speak that way.

 

MY reply, to which you [as usual] failed to answer, was, 'Since when has spelling had anything to do with pronunciation?' Please feel free to answer this question anytime.

 

It is admirable the way you swoop to the defence of those who choose to pronounce in the way that you do [the correct way?] How nice it must be to be 'correct'. Except that you are very often definitely 'incorrect'.

You make assertions that you have no scientific, philological, or statistical evidence of.

Worst of all you continue to perpetuate this exercise in tedium by studiously ignoring the meat of an argument whilst focusing on anything that may remotely advance your opinion or gain you support and/or kudos.

 

And then you invoke your pin sharp giant slayer, saying, 'anyone under the age of twenty five, will pronounce it 'properly'. [Especially them wot live where you live in the posh S.W. of Sheff']

Your obsession with neutrality of accent, age, correct BBC english, and 'location, location. location', is embarrassingly transparent in the extreme.

 

Your arrogant assertion that 'languages evolve' is exactly the point that I and others made previously; you have a completely unself-conscious knack of adopting observations made by others. Evolve they may, die they invariably do not and whether it's Grennll or any other local word it will always be pronounced in some colourfull NORTHERN WAY.

[Plain Talker 11]

t020.

To go back;- I said that 'an obvious and common reason that people choose to pronounce their area name as poshly as possible is to elevate their area'.{and consequently their personal status.)

 

 

My mother, when asked where she came from would reply "Ayter caiy liffe" (sorry trying to spell her pronunciation phoenetically) taking the mick out of "Attercliffe" :hihi:

 

PT

[t020 11]

t020.

You are infuriatingly selective in your choices of which parts of the argument that you reply to.

 

I know, it's good isn't it?

 

 

To go back;- I said that 'an obvious and common reason that people choose to pronounce their area name as poshly as possible is to elevate their area'.[and consequently their personal status.]

I know this to be human nature; if and when, you aquire some wisdom you too may find this to be the case. I'm attacking no-one, merely making an observation.

 

I don't come from, or live in, Greenhill. I have no hidden agenda to pronounce it "poshly". I just pronounce it (a) how I would naturally from reading the word and (b) how I've heard everyone else who has ever said it to me.

 

 

YOU said that, 'because Grenn'll is spelled, Greenhill, it should therefore be pronounced, Green-Hill, and that those who pronounce it that way [inferring it to be the, 'proper' way,] do so because they naturally speak that way.

 

MY reply, to which you [as usual] failed to answer, was, 'Since when has spelling had anything to do with pronunciation?' Please feel free to answer this question anytime.

 

I don't think I've ever stated which way is the "proper" way. All I've really done is say that I've never heard anyone say "Grennell" (and I haven't), and consequently got attacked for it.

 

Spelling often has a lot to do with pronunciation. I accept there are always notable exceptions, but when I see a word spelt as "Greenhill", my natural instinct is to pronounce it as such, and when this is re-iterated by hearing other people pronouncing it the same way, I'm hardly going to start saying "Grennell".

 

 

It is admirable the way you swoop to the defence of those who choose to pronounce in the way that you do [the correct way?] How nice it must be to be 'correct'. Except that you are very often definitely 'incorrect'.

You make assertions that you have no scientific, philological, or statistical evidence of.

Worst of all you continue to perpetuate this exercise in tedium by studiously ignoring the meat of an argument whilst focusing on anything that may remotely advance your opinion or gain you support and/or kudos.

 

As I said, I don't think I've ever said which is the "correct" pronunciation of it, merely just how I, and everyone else I've heard say the word, pronounces it as "Greenhill". This was in reply to the question posed in the thread title: "Why do Sheffield people pronounce Greenhill as "Grenill"?". I never expected to be attacked so vigorously and persistently over expressing my personal experience of Sheffield people's (of which I am one) pronunciation of a word, but then again I suppose I should come to expect it on this forum.

 

And then you invoke your pin sharp giant slayer, saying, 'anyone under the age of twenty five, will pronounce it 'properly'. [Especially them wot live where you live in the posh S.W. of Sheff']

Your obsession with neutrality of accent, age, correct BBC english, and 'location, location. location', is embarrassingly transparent in the extreme.

 

As a young person in the south west of Sheffield, I am obviously qualified to know how my peers speak, and as I've previously said, I don't know anyone who says "Grennell". I've also never come across people from other parts of the city that pronounce it that way, but after reading this thread there obviously are people from certain parts of the city that do, hence my observation.

 

 

Your arrogant assertion that 'languages evolve' is exactly the point that I and others made previously; you have a completely unself-conscious knack of adopting observations made by others. Evolve they may, die they invariably do not and whether it's Grennll or any other local word it will always be pronounced in some colourfull NORTHERN WAY.

 

Of course language evolves. I've never disputed that and it's certainly not an observation I've adopted from others in this thread (maybe my English teacher could take the credit for that).

 

Since that no-one in this thread who pronounces it as "Grennell" is a young person (young people from the area can only make reference to grandparents) then it's a fair assumption that this pronunciation will become archaic within a couple of generations, especially given increasingly fluid population movements. I can't see "Grennell" continuing to be pronounced in some "colourfull" [sic] 'northern' (I'm northern and so are most people I've heard say it, yet they don't pronounce it the "northern way"..) way.

[Plain Talker 11]

t020,

you havent answered the question posed earlier in this thread; how do you address the Cholmondeleys ot the Featherstonehaughs?

 

And, if you are travelling to Dodworth, that sattelite town to Barnsley:- where do you state your destination as...? Dod WERTH or Dodd 'oth?

 

(or Cudworth, even?)

 

P (have you met my friends the Beauchamps?)T

[t020 11]

t020,

you havent answered the question posed earlier in this thread; how do you address the Cholmondeleys ot the Featherstonehaughs?

 

And, if you are travelling to Dodworth, that sattelite town to Barnsley:- where do you state your destination as...? Dod WERTH or Dodd 'oth?

 

(or Cudworth, even?)

 

P (have you met my friends the Beauchamps?)T

 

I've answered the question about pronouncing words as they're spelt. This is how we ALL learn to pronounce words when we first come across them (usually as young children):

 

a) spell out the word phonetically - this is usually the correct way to pronounce the word.

 

b) adapt our pronunciation of said word according to how we hear others pronouncing it/ how they react to our own pronunciation.

 

For example, I remember as a young nipper I would pronounce Leicester as "Ley-kester", as most children would using phonetics. The hysterical reaction of my parents told me that this wasn't quite right! Hence I adapted accordingly.

 

With "Greenhill", only step (a) took place because everyone else I've ever heard has pronounced it as I initially interpreted.

 

With "Dodworth", my initial reaction is to pronounce it as "Dod-Worth", but having heard the place mentioned on local radio I would drop the 'w' as this is how most people pronounce it. I don't think I've heard of the other 2 places you mention.

[Plain Talker 11]

With "Dodworth", my initial reaction is to pronounce it as "Dod-Worth", but having heard the place mentioned on local radio I would drop the 'w' as this is how most people pronounce it. I don't think I've heard of the other 2 places you mention.

 

ok, barnsley:-

 

is here

http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=435000.019212035&Y=405000.50838285&width=700&height=400&gride=435397.019212035&gridn=406304.50838285&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=freegaz&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&keepicon=true&zm=0&scale=100000&multimap.x=350&multimap.y=159

 

It's about 10/15 miles north east of Sheffield centre.

 

Cudworth (just the other side of Barnsley)

http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&GridE=-1.41500&GridN=53.57790&lon=-1.41500&lat=53.57790&place=Cudworth,South+Yorkshire&db=freegaz&scale=100000&search_result=Cudworth%2CSouth%20Yorkshire&lang=&keepicon=true

 

it' a place which is pronounced "cudd'orth".

 

and "Dodd'oth" (Dodworth) is here

http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&GridE=-1.52450&GridN=53.54010&lon=-1.52450&lat=53.54010&search_result=Dodworth%2CSouth%20Yorkshire&db=freegaz&lang=&keepicon=true&place=Dodworth,South+Yorkshire&pc=&advanced=&client=public&addr2=&quicksearch=dodworth&addr3=&scale=100000&addr1=

 

PT

[Cynthia 10]

I have read this thread for the first time and noticed that SUPERTYKE has critisised t020 for typing afterall as one word, then SUPERTYKE goes on to state that-

QUOTE--The language has iMput from so many other nations-etc etc.

Do you mean iNput SUPERTYKE ???????

 

Cynthia, Ontario, Canada.

[artisan 10]

I've answered the question about pronouncing words as they're spelt. This is how we ALL learn to pronounce words when we first come across them (usually as young children):

 

a) spell out the word phonetically - this is usually the correct way to pronounce the word.

 

b) adapt our pronunciation of said word according to how we hear others pronouncing it/ how they react to our own pronunciation.

 

For example, I remember as a young nipper I would pronounce Leicester as "Ley-kester", as most children would using phonetics. The hysterical reaction of my parents told me that this wasn't quite right! Hence I adapted accordingly.

 

With "Greenhill", only step (a) took place because everyone else I've ever heard has pronounced it as I initially interpreted.

 

With "Dodworth", my initial reaction is to pronounce it as "Dod-Worth", but having heard the place mentioned on local radio I would drop the 'w' as this is how most people pronounce it. I don't think I've heard of the other 2 places you mention.

When you are allowed to travel about a bit on your own, you will meet other people and realise how they speak. You have obviously not been further than the end of the street on your own.

[t020 11]

When you are allowed to travel about a bit on your own, you will meet other people and realise how they speak. You have obviously not been further than the end of the street on your own.

 

How on earth did you arrive at that (incorrect) conclusion? :loopy:

 

There's plenty of other people who have stated in this thread that they don't pronounce Greenhill as "Grennell", and don't know anyone/ only know their old grandfather that does. Pick on them for a change. Jesus Christ.

[happyhippy 11]

How on earth did you arrive at that (incorrect) conclusion? :loopy:

 

There's plenty of other people who have stated in this thread that they don't pronounce Greenhill as "Grennell", and don't know anyone/ only know their old grandfather that does. Pick on them for a change. Jesus Christ.

 

I'm not a grandfather, and should hope not at 31, and I have only heard it as Grennel, or VERY occasionally as Green-ull, (as the brewery is pronounced).

 

NEVER Green-hill.

 

As for you suddenly being so defensive, I can only suggest for your style of debate to become less aggressive. Possibly then you would receive less pointed remarks.

 

Back to earlier points, however, how do YOU pronounce Cholmondley, Featherstonehaugh, and the name St John?

[t020 11]

I'm not a grandfather, and should hope not at 31, and I have only heard it as Grennel, or VERY occasionally as Green-ull, (as the brewery is pronounced).

 

NEVER Green-hill.

 

When you are allowed to travel about a bit on your own, you will meet other people and realise how they speak. You have obviously not been further than the end of the street on your own.

 

 

Back to earlier points, however, how do YOU pronounce Cholmondley, Featherstonehaugh, and the name St John?

 

I addressed the issue of pronunciation and spelling and some depth earlier in the thread.