Jump to content

How far will the rise of nationalistic populism go ?

Recommended Posts

It is. But perhaps the analogy with FGM is more compelling. Any commentators on here willing to stand up for FGM as they have for the covering of the face?

 

The BBC did a show where they let an opponent of fmg conduct a fake "survey" asking people if they supported fgm . There were plenty of well meaning but under educated takers - no doubt not wishing to offend a black woman in African garb.

 

I'll see if I can find a link.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is. But perhaps the analogy with FGM is more compelling. Any commentators on here willing to stand up for FGM as they have for the covering of the face?

 

Of course not, but just like suicide is permanent, so is FGM. A burqa can be removed. A life cannot be restarted or genitals unmutilated. Non-medical circumcision of boys falls into the same category.

 

For the record, I am supportive of assisted suicide, a confused about the burqa...can see both sides and totally unsure of what gives the best outcome for my aims of liberating more women and stopping oppression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Of course not, but just like suicide is permanent, so is FGM. A burqa can be removed. A life cannot be restarted or genitals unmutilated. Non-medical circumcision of boys falls into the same category.

 

A life (or major fraction thereof) wasted due to being oppressed is still a loss, but the point is valid.

 

For the record, I am supportive of assisted suicide, a confused about the burqa...can see both sides and totally unsure of what gives the best outcome for my aims of liberating more women and stopping oppression.

 

I think that's the only reasonable position to take on the matter. As I say we should start by agreeing that the matter is complicated.

Edited by unbeliever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It is. But perhaps the analogy with FGM is more compelling. Any commentators on here willing to stand up for FGM as they have for the covering of the face?

 

This is quite extreme and I'll admit a bit far fetched. But if an adult female of sound mind were to apply FGM to herself, would you use force to stop her... Would you call it freedom if you then did stop her?

 

If I (a white male) decided to start covering my face, would you call it freedom and supporting my rights if you made it illegal for me to do so?

 

If I decide to cut off my todger (I won't, but playing devil's advocate), or perhaps my little finger (joining the Yakuza obviously), would you stop me and call that liberation?

Edited by Cyclone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is quite extreme and I'll admit a bit far fetched. But if an adult female of sound mind were to apply FGM to herself, would you use force to stop her... Would you call it freedom if you then did stop her?

 

I do not accept the premise. A person proposing to do that to themselves is not of sound mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, I don't support banning the burka. Let people wear what they want until they go somewhere and as part of them being there they are asked to remove it. The same rules that apply to other face coverings should be consistently applied to the burka too.

 

You can wear a crash helmet in the street but not in a bank, so staff and CCTV can see your face. Why should a burka be any different?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I (a white male) decided to start covering my face, would you call it freedom and supporting my rights if you made it illegal for me to do so?

 

Would I have reason to suspect that you were wearing it because you were being forced to, or that you were part of an organisation (I can think of one) that operated a mixture of voluntary and compelled face-covering?

 

If I decide to cut off my todger (I won't, but playing devil's advocate), or perhaps my little finger (joining the Yakuza obviously), would you stop me and call that liberation?

 

I would conclude that you were mentally ill and restrain you until you could be treated by the appropriate professionals. I would not call it liberation but I would call it righteous for other reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is quite extreme and I'll admit a bit far fetched. But if an adult female of sound mind were to apply FGM to herself, would you use force to stop her... Would you call it freedom if you then did stop her?

 

If I (a white male) decided to start covering my face, would you call it freedom and supporting my rights if you made it illegal for me to do so?

 

If I decide to cut off my todger (I won't, but playing devil's advocate), or perhaps my little finger (joining the Yakuza obviously), would you stop me and call that liberation?

 

The NHS pay for plenty of people to get their todger cut off - gender reassignment to me and you. Still with my devils advocate cap on, there are a smaller number who want a limb cut off because they don't think it belongs to them - it's got a name I just don't know what it is. Should the NHS offer FGM to those who want it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FWIW, I don't support banning the burka. Let people wear what they want until they go somewhere and as part of them being there they are asked to remove it. The same rules that apply to other face coverings should be consistently applied to the burka too.

 

You can wear a crash helmet in the street but not in a bank, so staff and CCTV can see your face. Why should a burka be any different?

 

If you wandered around in a crash helmet in the street without reason, you might easily find yourself stopped by a policeman and asked to remove it and explain yourself.

 

---------- Post added 14-12-2016 at 13:34 ----------

 

The NHS pay for plenty of people to get their todger cut off - gender reassignment to me and you. Still with my devils advocate cap on, there are a smaller number who want a limb cut off because they don't think it belongs to them - it's got a name I just don't know what it is. Should the NHS offer FGM to those who want it?

 

Gender reassignment is done after years of assessment to make sure it's genuine and not self-harm.

The NHS should not offer FGM. Anybody asking for it for themselves should be referred to social services. Anybody asking for another should be reported to the police.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FWIW, I don't support banning the burka. Let people wear what they want until they go somewhere and as part of them being there they are asked to remove it. The same rules that apply to other face coverings should be consistently applied to the burka too.

 

You can wear a crash helmet in the street but not in a bank, so staff and CCTV can see your face. Why should a burka be any different?

 

Yes, I think that's a reasonable stance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, I think that's a reasonable stance.

 

Special allowances are often made for people to practise their religion or perpetuate their culture which would not normally be tolerated by the authorities.

 

Here for example is the law on Halal and Kosher slaughter:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/halal-and-kosher-slaughter

 

You must stun all animals before you slaughter them unless an animal is being religiously slaughtered for halal or kosher meat.

...

To perform shechita (Jewish religious slaughter), you must:

- be a Jew

- have a licence to perform shechita from the Rabbinical Commission for the Licensing of Shochetim

...

Requirements to slaughter for halal meat:

You must be a Muslim to slaughter animals for halal meat.

...

 

Covering the face is different.

It's defended on the ground of modesty, but I don't accept that. Modesty can be achieved, or at least 99% achieved, without hiding the face.

It suppresses identity and communication, and it dehumanises people.

But it remains an expression of religious devotion and this is something we have always defended even if it is not free of harmfulness.

Is this harmful enough to ban? I just don't know.

Edited by unbeliever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Special allowances are often made for people to practise their religion or perpetuate their culture which would not normally be tolerated by the authorities.

 

Here for example is the law on Halal and Kosher slaughter:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/halal-and-kosher-slaughter

 

 

 

Covering the face is different.

It's defended on the ground of modesty, but I don't accept that. Modesty can be achieved, or at least 99% achieved, without hiding the face.

It suppresses identity and communication, and it dehumanises people.

But it remains an expression of religious devotion and this is something we have always defended even if it is not free of harmfulness.

Is this harmful enough to ban? I just don't know.

 

I'm aware of the current laws, but I still think Mr Bloke's stance is reasonable. No religion should be given special treatment and laws should apply equally to all. Including slaughter carried out within the UK. A serious question here, if murder was legal within a religion and clearly defined as such (i.e. not taken out of context like nearly all religious rules are) then would it be legal here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.