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Should I be allowed to burn the flag if I want to?

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if anyone wants to burn the butchers apron leave em to it ..

Is that how the Taliban came about? All the nasty non-Muslims in Afghanistan criticising Muslims and making them embrace extremism?

You and your far right sweeping statements. ..

If you had a nuanced or balanced view you would probably make sense to yourself rather come across as some bigoted hater.

As for Afghanistan it has not always had a muslim fundamentalist problem. The usa and its ally Saudi Arabia since the 70s 80s etc encouraged Islamic fundamentalism with Saudi-propagated Wahabism a school unto itself.. worth reading up on

Edited by WestTinsley

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Woah, there, cowboy...BIG non-sequitur in that sentence!

 

;):hihi:

 

Can't believe it took me this long to get that. Over 13 hrs! The penny has literally just dropped. Made me laugh out loud and go AAAHHHHHH!!!! What an eejit! :hihi::D

Edited by mikem8634

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamo View Post

If a Muslim burns the national flag in the West he might get abuse. If a non-Muslim burns the Koran anywhere where there are Muslims then he'd be attacked and possibly killed. That's the difference. That's the intolerance and anger issue with Islam that leads to extremism i.e. the 'moderate' position is already extreme. That's the issue that Muslims need to resolve if they want tolerance in the West to turn to acceptance. At the moment we are heading in the opposite direct towards rejection (think Brexit, Trump and the rise of the far right across Europe). Sulking, tantrums, threats and even violence are counter productive... sort it out!

 

If you don't think that Christianity has an extremism problem then you are really not paying attention. My guess is you will attempt dismiss that by saying that Islamic extremism is more prevalent and worse, which I will not let you get away with. For the simple reason that, as I am sure you know, one thing being bigger than another does not stop the smaller thing from existing. So let's head that one off at the pass.

 

 

 

You don't just get to assert things and for them to become automatically true. I noticed you cited a Muslim burning a national flag vs. a non-Muslim burning the Quran - false equivalence. Where is your evidence that literally every single place where there are Muslims a Non-Muslim would be attacked and possibly killed for burning a Quran? Where is your evidence that the 'moderate' position is already extreme? Especially considering that the phrase itself is utter illogical nonsense as, by definition something moderate cannot be extreme. Have a look at the logical absolutes to avoid making that basic error again. This is just another way of saying that all Muslims are extremists, which is simply factually incorrect and there is no way around that for you.

 

Are you seriously suggesting there is no chance that a Muslim burning the stars and stripes or the Bible (to correct your false equivalence) in the US would be attacked or killed? Are you that entrenched in your rhetoric that you cannot accept that as a possibility. Have you seen a Trump rally? Or maybe The National Policy Institute? Do you think they would just ignore the Bible-burning Muslim and just go on with their Hitler salutes peacefully? How do you think Britain First or the EDL would respond.? How would it go down in one of National Action's White Zones in Newbury or Glasgow?

 

You carry exactly the same amount of guilt as the Muslims who do not launch attacks when their religious symbols are burnt ie. precisely none. So when are you going to sort out Islamic extremism. It is as much your responsibility as it is theirs because neither of you act in the way that you are suggesting needs sorting out.

 

And when you've finished sorting out the issues with Islam that you are not responsible for, I look forward to your detailed action plan for sorting out the problem of extremism in the right-wing, a group to which you belong and, you guessed it, for which you are, of course, not at all responsible. If you are going to impose burdens on innocent people who do not warrant them then pick up your own.

 

Excellent post Mikem- pretty much says it all about people like Zamo.

 

The kind of guy who will turn a blind eye to problems nearer home which allow men like far right terrorist Thomas Mair to kill.

 

Careful Zamo- you could be radicalized if you continue on this path of hate and blindness...and no one has even bombed UK (or American for that matter). The latter has of course bombed Muslim countries freely over last few years under 'Barrack Obomba'.

 

https://theintercept.com/2014/11/06/many-countries-islamic-world-u-s-bombed-occupied-since-1980/

 

Here's some more news you should swallow.

 

Rightwing extremists kill and injure more people in lone wolf attacks than Islamic terrorists acting alone, according to a report by a security thinktank.

 

The Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) in London says in its report Countering Lone Actor Terrorism that rightwing extremists across Europe present a substantial threat to the public that should not be overlooked.

 

It details the cases of 94 people who were killed and 260 who were injured in attacks by far-right terrorists acting on their own between the start of 2000 and the end of 2014.

 

In contrast, religiously inspired lone attacks killed 16 and injured 65 people.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/22/rightwing-lone-wolves-islamist-extremists-report-thinktank-rusi

 

Take a close look in the mirror- your modus operandi is clear when you post but it's beginning to sound like a broken record.

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Can't believe it took me this long to get that. Over 13 hrs! The penny has literally just dropped. Made me laugh out loud and go AAAHHHHHH!!!! What an eejit! :hihi::D
I had every confidence that you eventually would :D

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Excellent post Mikem- pretty much says it all about people like Zamo.

 

The kind of guy who will turn a blind eye to problems nearer home which allow men like far right terrorist Thomas Mair to kill.

 

Careful Zamo- you could be radicalized if you continue on this path of hate and blindness...and no one has even bombed UK (or American for that matter). The latter has of course bombed Muslim countries freely over last few years under 'Barrack Obomba'.

 

https://theintercept.com/2014/11/06/many-countries-islamic-world-u-s-bombed-occupied-since-1980/

 

Here's some more news you should swallow.

 

 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/22/rightwing-lone-wolves-islamist-extremists-report-thinktank-rusi

 

Take a close look in the mirror- your modus operandi is clear when you post but it's beginning to sound like a broken record.

 

 

I'm still considering which side of this matter I'm on as I have agreements and disagreements with both, but I've never seen such ridiculously bogus statistics.

Read it again. It specifically compares individuals acting alone. Excluding, on no grounds whatsoever, anybody who is deemed to have acted as part of a team or any kind of collective. How is that valid?!?

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Has anybody said that unfair criticism is the only thing that contributes to radicalisation? No, they haven't. So we can let your little invention of an argument rest there. I don't know why you keep trying these ploys when they are so transparent and so easily called out. It does you no credit.

 

Any criticism of 'moderate' Muslims is deemed unfair by people like you. I disagree but either way it is a completely moot point. The simple reality is that Muslims will collectively suffer if tolerance turns into rejection. The fairness of it is academic.

 

If you don't think that Christianity has an extremism problem then you are really not paying attention. My guess is you will attempt dismiss that by saying that Islamic extremism is more prevalent and worse, which I will not let you get away with. For the simple reason that, as I am sure you know, one thing being bigger than another does not stop the smaller thing from existing. So let's head that one off at the pass.

 

You are doing what you and the left always want to do i.e. ignore the big issues that concern the majority and using whataboutism tactics to try and change the subject.

 

You don't just get to assert things and for them to become automatically true. I noticed you cited a Muslim burning a national flag vs. a non-Muslim burning the Quran - false equivalence. Where is your evidence that literally every single place where there are Muslims a Non-Muslim would be attacked and possibly killed for burning a Quran? Where is your evidence that the 'moderate' position is already extreme? Especially considering that the phrase itself is utter illogical nonsense as, by definition something moderate cannot be extreme. Have a look at the logical absolutes to avoid making that basic error again. This is just another way of saying that all Muslims are extremists, which is simply factually incorrect and there is no way around that for you.

 

I don't agree that the national flag and a holy book are not equivalent and think you are just making excuses to justify the anger and intolerance of Muslims.

 

I agree 'moderate' can't be extreme. I use the phrase with irony because it is people like you that always like to refer to the 'moderate' Muslim majority. 'Moderates' who worship a god that will burn in hell for all eternity anyone who practises homosexuality or refuses to worship him... very 'moderate'.

 

Islam is not moderate and is riddled with the intolerant failings of man because it is man-made fiction. To borrow your phrase, it is 'utter illogical nonsense' and is dangerous nonsense to boot. All those who practice and perpetuate it therefore share blame for the nasty intolerance it leads to. Muslims choose to perpetuate Islam and it is completely legitimate to judge people for the choices they make and the impact it has on others. It is a shame you are suffering from politically correct hypocrisy and can't find the courage to condemn it as easily as you condemn my criticism of it.

 

Are you seriously suggesting there is no chance that a Muslim burning the stars and stripes or the Bible (to correct your false equivalence) in the US would be attacked or killed? Are you that entrenched in your rhetoric that you cannot accept that as a possibility. Have you seen a Trump rally? Or maybe The National Policy Institute? Do you think they would just ignore the Bible-burning Muslim and just go on with their Hitler salutes peacefully? How do you think Britain First or the EDL would respond.? How would it go down in one of National Action's White Zones in Newbury or Glasgow?

 

Shall we conduct an experiment to test your theory that the teachings of Islam do not cause followers to be any more intolerant than any other religious group? I'll don some Muslim attire and go and burn a Union Jake AND a bible somewhere in Sheffield of your choosing. I'll then pick somewhere in Sheffield for you to go and burn a Koran. Up for it? Confident we will see comparable levels of tolerance?

 

You carry exactly the same amount of guilt as the Muslims who do not launch attacks when their religious symbols are burnt ie. precisely none. So when are you going to sort out Islamic extremism. It is as much your responsibility as it is theirs because neither of you act in the way that you are suggesting needs sorting out.

 

I have done, and continue to do, my bit to fight Islamic extremism. I refuse to practice, propagate and perpetuate it's intolerant teachings and I speak out against it.

 

And when you've finished sorting out the issues with Islam that you are not responsible for, I look forward to your detailed action plan for sorting out the problem of extremism in the right-wing, a group to which you belong and, you guessed it, for which you are, of course, not at all responsible. If you are going to impose burdens on innocent people who do not warrant them then pick up your own.

 

What right wing group would that be? What's the name of this group, where do we meet and what are the intolerant views we propagate?

 

I speak out against an intolerant religion that creates extremist monsters that wreck lives (especially the lives of Muslims) and that makes me a right wing extremist? Do you see what you have done? You have done exactly what I said the left do (and you deny on your 'normalisation of deviance' thread) in response to legitimate criticism of Islam and Muslims. You have no counter argument so you seek refuge behind labels. You call me right wing, racist, xenophobic, bigoted or Islamophobic and use the accusation as a substitute for a counter argument or acknowledging uncomfortable truths. It is plain for all to see and it is why the left is haemorrhaging support... you no longer have views and policies that represent the majority.

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Any criticism of 'moderate' Muslims is deemed unfair by people like you. I disagree but either way it is a completely moot point. The simple reality is that Muslims will collectively suffer if tolerance turns into rejection. The fairness of it is academic.

 

 

 

You are doing what you and the left always want to do i.e. ignore the big issues that concern the majority and using whataboutism tactics to try and change the subject.

 

 

 

I don't agree that the national flag and a holy book are not equivalent and think you are just making excuses to justify the anger and intolerance of Muslims.

 

I agree 'moderate' can't be extreme. I use the phrase with irony because it is people like you that always like to refer to the 'moderate' Muslim majority. 'Moderates' who worship a god that will burn in hell for all eternity anyone who practises homosexuality or refuses to worship him... very 'moderate'.

 

Islam is not moderate and is riddled with the intolerant failings of man because it is man-made fiction. To borrow your phrase, it is 'utter illogical nonsense' and is dangerous nonsense to boot. All those who practice and perpetuate it therefore share blame for the nasty intolerance it leads to. Muslims choose to perpetuate Islam and it is completely legitimate to judge people for the choices they make and the impact it has on others. It is a shame you are suffering from politically correct hypocrisy and can't find the courage to condemn it as easily as you condemn my criticism of it.

 

 

 

Shall we conduct an experiment to test your theory that the teachings of Islam do not cause followers to be any more intolerant than any other religious group? I'll don some Muslim attire and go and burn a Union Jake AND a bible somewhere in Sheffield of your choosing. I'll then pick somewhere in Sheffield for you to go and burn a Koran. Up for it? Confident we will see comparable levels of tolerance?

 

 

 

I have done, and continue to do, my bit to fight Islamic extremism. I refuse to practice, propagate and perpetuate it's intolerant teachings and I speak out against it.

 

 

 

What right wing group would that be? What's the name of this group, where do we meet and what are the intolerant views we propagate?

 

I speak out against an intolerant religion that creates extremist monsters that wreck lives (especially the lives of Muslims) and that makes me a right wing extremist? Do you see what you have done? You have done exactly what I said the left do (and you deny on your 'normalisation of deviance' thread) in response to legitimate criticism of Islam and Muslims. You have no counter argument so you seek refuge behind labels. You call me right wing, racist, xenophobic, bigoted or Islamophobic and use the accusation as a substitute for a counter argument or acknowledging uncomfortable truths. It is plain for all to see and it is why the left is haemorrhaging support... you no longer have views and policies that represent the majority.

 

We don't always agree on these things, but I can find no fault with any of this.

You sir have very much hit the nail on the head.

:thumbsup:

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Any criticism of 'moderate' Muslims is deemed unfair by people like you. I disagree but either way it is a completely moot point. The simple reality is that Muslims will collectively suffer if tolerance turns into rejection. The fairness of it is academic.

 

It is not deemed unfair by me, it is deemed unfair, like any criticism or allegation, by the lack of evidence that it is true.

 

You are doing what you and the left always want to do i.e. ignore the big issues that concern the majority and using whataboutism tactics to try and change the subject.

 

Nope, sorry, whataboutism is introducing an unrelated issue. You specifically asked about other religions.

 

I don't agree that the national flag and a holy book are not equivalent and think you are just making excuses to justify the anger and intolerance of Muslims.

 

Yes, you are right, they can be equivalent. I was just showing that you were, once again, imprecise.

 

I agree 'moderate' can't be extreme. I use the phrase with irony because it is people like you that always like to refer to the 'moderate' Muslim majority. 'Moderates' who worship a god that will burn in hell for all eternity anyone who practises homosexuality or refuses to worship him... very 'moderate'.

 

That is exactly what Christian doctrine states.

 

Many Muslims, in exactly the same way as many Christians, moderate the extremes of their religions with their own secular morality.

 

Islam is not moderate and is riddled with the intolerant failings of man because it is man-made fiction. To borrow your phrase, it is 'utter illogical nonsense' and is dangerous nonsense to boot. All those who practice and perpetuate it therefore share blame for the nasty intolerance it leads to. Muslims choose to perpetuate Islam and it is completely legitimate to judge people for the choices they make and the impact it has on others.

 

All religion is man-made fiction and I would prefer a world without it. My issue with your posts is their inconsistency, special pleading fallacies and bias. There is simply no way to legitimately blame people for actions they have not committed.

 

 

Shall we conduct an experiment to test your theory that the teachings of Islam do not cause followers to be any more intolerant than any other religious group? I'll don some Muslim attire and go and burn a Union Jake AND a bible somewhere in Sheffield of your choosing. I'll then pick somewhere in Sheffield for you to go and burn a Koran. Up for it? Confident we will see comparable levels of tolerance?

 

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent."

 

There you go, now you have no excuse for doing it again.

 

I have done, and continue to do, my bit to fight Islamic extremism. I refuse to practice, propagate and perpetuate it's intolerant teachings and I speak out against it.

 

That is an excellent point well made. If you could just be more accurate and disciplined in what you say and also stop blaming people for actions they have not committed then you will actually be doing something admirable.

 

 

What right wing group would that be? What's the name of this group, where do we meet and what are the intolerant views we propagate?

 

The group you belong to is the right wing.

 

I speak out against an intolerant religion that creates extremist monsters that wreck lives (especially the lives of Muslims) and that makes me a right wing extremist? Do you see what you have done? You have done exactly what I said the left do (and you deny on your 'normalisation of deviance' thread) in response to legitimate criticism of Islam and Muslims. You have no counter argument so you seek refuge behind labels. You call me right wing, racist, xenophobic, bigoted or Islamophobic and use the accusation as a substitute for a counter argument or acknowledging uncomfortable truths. It is plain for all to see and it is why the left is haemorrhaging support... you no longer have views and policies that represent the majority.

 

 

No Zamo, it doesn't. Read it again. I specifically stated that you are not responsible for extremism in the right-wing despite being part of the right-wing. That's the whole point. So the rest of that quote isn't worth addressing as it flows from a mistake.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I note that, once again, despite being specifically asked once again, you have provided no evidence whatsoever for any of your claims.

 

People can judge that as they see fit, but I'll leave you with what Christopher Hitchens had to say on the subject

 

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

 

You may benefit from reading some Hitchens, you would probably find a fair bit of common ground when it comes to Islam, and you would certainly gain some insight into how to make a credible argument.

 

I am bowing out at this point as I'm spending too much time on here.

 

Good luck, I hope you get the peace you want, in a way that is peaceful for all concerned.

Edited by mikem8634

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All religion is man-made fiction and I would prefer a world without it. My issue with your posts is their inconsistency, special pleading fallacies and bias. There is simply no way to legitimately blame people for actions they have not committed.

 

I am totally consistent. There are plenty of threads relating to religion in general and Christianity... you'll find my posts equally scathing.

 

I blame Muslims for propagating and perpetuating a religion (which we agree is man-made drivel) that has an extremism problem. Is it untrue they have committed the offence that I accuse them of?

 

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent."

 

There you go, now you have no excuse for doing it again.

 

So we make progress... you admit that Islam causes angry, extreme people. Why then defend it instead of criticise it?

 

That is an excellent point well made. If you could just be more accurate and disciplined in what you say and also stop blaming people for actions they have not committed then you will actually be doing something admirable.

 

Once again, the only thing I blame Muslims for is perpetuating an intolerant religion that causes an extremism problem. Give it up or change it is my challenge.

 

People can judge that as they see fit, but I'll leave you with what Christopher Hitchens had to say on the subject

 

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

 

You may benefit from reading some Hitchens, you would probably find a fair bit of common ground when it comes to Islam, and you would certainly gain some insight into how to make a credible argument.

 

I am bowing out at this point as I'm spending too much time on here.

 

Good luck, I hope you get the peace you want, in a way that is peaceful for all concerned.

 

Hitchens saw Islam as the greatest threat of our time, along with the misplaced political correctness that prevents liberals and leftist from calling Islam out. How far the termites have spread.

dealing with someone like you.

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I am totally consistent. There are plenty of threads relating to religion in general and Christianity... you'll find my posts equally scathing.

 

I blame Muslims for propagating and perpetuating a religion (which we agree is man-made drivel) that has an extremism problem. Is it untrue they have committed the offence that I accuse them of?

 

 

 

So we make progress... you admit that Islam causes angry, extreme people. Why then defend it instead of criticise it?

 

 

 

Once again, the only thing I blame Muslims for is perpetuating an intolerant religion that causes an extremism problem. Give it up or change it is my challenge.

 

 

Hitchens saw Islam as the greatest threat of our time, along with the misplaced political correctness that prevents liberals and leftist from calling Islam out. How far the termites have spread.

dealing with someone like you.

 

My bold=

Do you think Muslims are going to take up any challenges coming from a right wing bigot like you?

Stop tarring all Muslims with the same brush as that is what gives you away to be a right wing extremist type.

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It's a gesture that achieves literally nothing.

 

You've burnt a flag. Well done. And that has caused what to happen? A little pollution? That's about it.

 

I would suggest that the sight on TV of a crowd burning a flag achieves quite a lot. If by "achieving" you also include annoying a lot of people as well as rallying others to your cause

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...

 

Hitchens saw Islam as the greatest threat of our time, along with the misplaced political correctness that prevents liberals and leftist from calling Islam out. How far the termites have spread.

dealing with someone like you.

You call Hitchens a" great man " he was off his head for the past 20 years..

 

As for your comments on islam or Muslims.. I see no difference from what you say and what I hear from EDL, BNP,NF,BF and the like.

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