The Normalisation of Deviance

[Michael_W 11]

My point of view is broader because I accept that there are things that are true even though I have not witnessed them and I apply the principles of critical thinking. I am consistently sceptical and my bar is high. I doubt I believe anything (well there is one thing) with absolute 100% certainty.

 

My guess is that there are loads of things you believe to be true that you haven't personally witnessed.

 

What is the difference between believing something to be true and believing it to be a credible source for reference? Or do you only reference the media to show that it is not credible?

 

Of course there are loads of things that are true that I have not witnessed, but we have narrowed the subject down on this part of the thread to racism and xenophobia. I am not denying it's existence, I am denying that it's the problem some would like us all to believe, media, political and social hype and exaggeration seems to have become the norm in society today. I can see through much of it and you would argue you can do the same.

Nothing you claim on here will convince me otherwise despite your alleged broader view, again that is simply opinion, I stand by my own, and we won't share the same one on this matter.

 

Oh and I do have other things to do than spend hours answering or responding to you, don't be so silly as to think otherwise, I have wasted enough time here already.

[mikem8634 10]

Of course there are loads of things that are true that I have not witnessed, but we have narrowed the subject down on this part of the thread to racism and xenophobia. I am not denying it's existence, I am denying that it's the problem some would like us all to believe, media, political and social hype and exaggeration seems to have become the norm in society today. I can see through much of it and you would argue you can do the same.

Nothing you claim on here will convince me otherwise despite your alleged broader view, again that is simply opinion, I stand by my own, and we won't share the same one on this matter.

 

You have every right to your opinion. I am trying to find out what you are basing it on. All you have told me so far is your own eyes. You haven't explained how you evaluate things you haven't seen.

 

So, I'll ask again -

 

Why do you believe Islamic terrorism is a problem but racism/xenophobia isn't? In one case you believe external sources, in the other you don't, why?

 

---------- Post added 30-11-2016 at 19:57 ----------

 

It's a shame you have decided to stop. I hope you find the time to answer the question.

 

As it stands it seems that you are applying unequal standards that make it impossible for you to ever believe that racism and xenophobia are a problem, no matter what evidence you are presented with.

 

Unless, of course, you witness an act of racism or xenophobia, which will then, somehow, make all of the other reported accounts true.

 

You do not hold reporting of Islamic extremism to the same standard. That is the very essence of hypocrisy, and the only conclusion that can currently be drawn, if you refuse to discuss it any further, is that your main concern is that your current world view remains intact at all costs.

Edited November 30, 2016 by mikem8634

[Randy 10]

You have every right to your opinion. I am trying to find out what you are basing it on. All you have told me so far is your own eyes. You haven't explained how you evaluate things you haven't seen.

 

So, I'll ask again -

 

Why do you believe Islamic terrorism is a problem but racism/xenophobia isn't? In one case you believe external sources, in the other you don't, why?

 

---------- Post added 30-11-2016 at 19:57 ----------

 

It's a shame you have decided to stop. I hope you find the time to answer the question.

 

As it stands it seems that you are applying unequal standards that make it impossible for you to ever believe that racism and xenophobia are a problem, no matter what evidence you are presented with.

 

Unless, of course, you witness an act of racism or xenophobia, which will then, somehow, make all of the other reported accounts true.

 

You do not hold reporting of Islamic extremism to the same standard. That is the very essence of hypocrisy, and the only conclusion that can currently be drawn, if you refuse to discuss it any further, is that your main concern is that your current world view remains intact at all costs.

 

You seem to be obsessed with racism and xenophobia to the extent that you seem genuinely hurt when people log off this forum and don't spend every waking minute responding to your accusations.

 

Mike, could I ask are you black and/or an immigrant yourself? If not, why are you so obsessed with racism and xenophobia?

[mikem8634 10]

You seem to be obsessed with racism and xenophobia to the extent that you seem genuinely hurt when people log off this forum and don't spend every waking minute responding to your accusations.

 

Mike, could I ask are you black and/or an immigrant yourself? If not, why are you so obsessed with racism and xenophobia?

 

I don't think it is relevant but I'll answer your question - I am white British.

 

I am not sure how you can characterise talking about racism/xenophobia in a thread about racism/xenophobia as obsession. Isn't it just staying on-topic? Do you see evidence of me introducing racism/xenophobia into countless threads were it is entirely irrelevant?

 

I am not hurt when people log off, I thinks it's a shame that some people log off when they are presented with uncomfortable issues arising from the things they say. It quite often happens at exactly the same point, the point when I have shown, via their own statements, that their double standards are undeniable. However, rather than own up to it and face up to it they do the forum equivalent of a teenager slamming his bedroom door. All so their world view can be protected. That is ultimately dishonest.

 

I am interested and concerned by racism and xenophobia, amongst many other things, some of which don't directly effect me but contravene the principles I hold dear. Do you only care about things that directly effect you?

[Randy 10]

I don't think it is relevant but I'll answer your question - I am white British.

 

I am not sure how you can characterise talking about racism/xenophobia in a thread about racism/xenophobia as obsession. Isn't it just staying on-topic? Do you see evidence of me introducing racism/xenophobia into countless threads were it is entirely irrelevant?

 

I am not hurt when people log off, I thinks it's a shame that some people log off when they are presented with uncomfortable issues arising from the things they say. It quite often happens at exactly the same point, the point when I have shown, via their own statements, that their double standards are undeniable. However, rather than own up to it and face up to it they do the forum equivalent of a teenager slamming his bedroom door. All so their world view can be protected. That is ultimately dishonest.

 

I am interested and concerned by racism and xenophobia, amongst many other things, some of which don't directly effect me but contravene the principles I hold dear. Do you only care about things that directly effect you?

 

Largely yes, I care more about things that affect me than those that don't, which is why as a fellow white Brit I don't think racism is such a big issue as you claim it is.

 

For one thing, the most recent census I can find suggests 87% of the UK population is white and therefore unaffected by racism, so why get so worked up about something that only affects 13% of us?

 

Secondly, your perception of a huge rise in hate crime post-Brexit is largely a myth propogated by the left wing media you read. Had you read this article, you might have a different perspective?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3805008/The-great-Brexit-hate-crime-myth-claims-epidemic-race-crimes-referendum-simply-false.html

 

Or do you only selectively believe the facts and stories you agree with?

[mikem8634 10]

Largely yes, I care more about things that affect me than those that don't, which is why as a fellow white Brit I don't think racism is such a big issue as you claim it is.

 

For one thing, the most recent census I can find suggests 87% of the UK population is white and therefore unaffected by racism, so why get so worked up about something that only affects 13% of us?

 

Empathy. I really shouldn't have to tell you that.

 

Secondly, your perception of a huge rise in hate crime post-Brexit is largely a myth propogated by the left wing media you read. Had you read this article, you might have a different perspective?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3805008/The-great-Brexit-hate-crime-myth-claims-epidemic-race-crimes-referendum-simply-false.html

 

Or do you only selectively believe the facts and stories you agree with?

 

I'll take time to go through your article properly and get back to you. I have already spotted a few areas where it is right and a few where it is wrong, but it'll take a little longer to do it comprehensively.

[Randy 10]

Empathy. I really shouldn't have to tell you that.

 

 

 

I'll take time to go through your article properly and get back to you. I have already spotted a few areas where it is right and a few where it is wrong, but it'll take a little longer to do it comprehensively.

 

Thank you. While you're in a reading mood, you might also want to look at this Guardian article which argues that over-defensive advocacy of minorities (similar to your opening post) has actually encouraged the growth of populism and the rise of the likes of Trump and Farage.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/01/blame-trump-brexit-identity-liberalism

 

Please don't get upset if I don't reply to you straight away, I'm not going to be on the forum for a few days after this post!

[mikem8634 10]

Thank you. While you're in a reading mood, you might also want to look at this Guardian article which argues that over-defensive advocacy of minorities (similar to your opening post) has actually encouraged the growth of populism and the rise of the likes of Trump and Farage.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/01/blame-trump-brexit-identity-liberalism

 

Please don't get upset if I don't reply to you straight away, I'm not going to be on the forum for a few days after this post!

 

I'll certainly read it. However, there is nothing over-defensive about challenging genuine racism, white supremacy and neo-nazism and ensuring they do not move into the mainstream. If you had read the thread in any detail you would see that I have no doubt whatsoever that falsely accusing people of those things does, indeed, drive people toward populism. In exactly the same way that making unjustifiable accusations and demands of the innocent Muslim majority drives fringe members of it towards radicalisation. One cannot be true without the other, the logic is the same.

 

EDIT - read the Guardian article. Pretty much agree with that. I have been banging on about right and left being irrelevant to this thread since early on, and trying to encourage people to see that they are falling into the trap of only defending their 'tribe' at all costs. In a nutshell, I would challenge a left-winger being racist to a right-winger in exactly the same way, and attach exactly the same relevance to it, as I would if the situation where inverted.

 

Seeing as you're off for a bit I'll not unduly rush the Mail one as I'm away also for a few days from tomorrow, but I will get to it. Rest assured, your absence does not upset me.

Edited December 1, 2016 by mikem8634

[Zamo 10]

Zamo, please let this sink in, I have been saying that since the first post. You have wasted all of this time trying to make a point I conceded in the first line.

 

That's why I said all of the posturing was pointless, all you had to do is read what I actually said, rather than throw a thousand smileys at an attack you incorrectly assumed I was making when it was plain and simple to see I wasn't if you had just taken the care to look. This thread is about tackling real, evident, obvious racism and has been from the beginning.

 

You still completely miss the point. People are not only not wanting to engage with the left because it has previously made false accusations of racism. They don't want to engage with the left because the left only wants to discuss it's concerns (racism, racism, racism) and STILL ignores the concerns of the majority.

 

The left just cannot accept that most people are not concerned about the same things as them. At first the left concluded it was because we were all racists but now some of you graciously accept this wasn't always the case. The left has now decided we're not in fact all racists... we're actually all deviants. Yes, we are simply feeble minded souls that have been brainwashed by racists who repeat their untruths until we think such views are normal. If the plebs would just allow the enlighten ones the opportunity to explain the cause of our mental aberration then we would be quickly cured and can get back to talking about what matters... racism.

 

I'll just let that sit there, a detailed challenge will serve no purpose in this instance. The flaws are evident. I expected you to try and rationalise a way out of admitting that you are applying different standards to people you don't like, standards that are higher than you expect of yourself, and that is what you have done.

 

If you hadn't spent so much time posturing, avoiding and deflecting, and had actually answered the questions I put to you, then we'd have reached this point in about three posts. But I suspect you already know that.

 

A detailed challenge is pointless because the left has already lost the argument - as evidenced by Brexit, Trump and the general surge towards the right across the west. You have no arguments that have not been made a thousand times over and rejected. Repeating them yet again will not suddenly result in a different outcome. Repeating the same old arguments over and over only reinforces the opinion that those on the left don't listen.

 

Re first emboldened part of your reply -

I call you out on total BS; my contribution to this thread pointed out that hate crime rose 41% post Brexit. Yet in your twisted view, this becomes 'crying racism when there is none'. Are you claiming that that 41% rise in hate crime is fictitious, or that we should pretend it isn't happening?

 

You are the worst offender for crying 'racist' on SF and you're strawman argument is not worth taking even a minute to reply to.

 

Re second emboldened part - your claim that propagation of Islamic beliefs leads to extremism. Not true. If it were, we be overrun by extremists.

What leads to extremism is people feeling disenfranchised, having no stake in society and no hope for the future.

 

If you want to see the what the propagation of Islam does to a country then look to the Muslim world. The reason we experience less extremism in the west is simply because we have less Muslims.

 

Re your last paragraph - again, alas, BS. An extended whine on your part, that's remarkably reminiscent of the kind of self piteous whining we've come to loathe from no-marks like Jayda Fransen and Paul 'poor me' Golding. I've been banned and had posts lifted as much as the next man - I know the score.

It happens when you breach the rules, no more, no less.

It's perfectly possible to be critical of Islam in a way that doesn't breach the rules - and for you to claim otherwise is frankly rather pathetic.

 

Finally, what you appear to be claiming about SF - that it's run by a cabbal of people with a pro left bias who won't tolerate opposing views is quite frankly utterly absurd.

 

SF will just about tolerate me posting that I think Islam is a threat but say any more than that and the posts disappear. But such censorship by those on the left (however they choose to justify it) is completely counter productive because stopping people expressing their concerns does not make them go away. All the left do when it refuses to accept there are problems with Islam and immigration to address, is to make the acceptance of Islam and immigration an all or nothing decision. People can either agree with the left that it is all good or they can bugger off to the far-right/nationalists who tell us it is all bad. Brexit, Trump and the rise of the far-right across Europe, should by now be telling you that this tactic is backfiring and it is time to change tactics and compromise. But no, the self destruction continues.

[mikem8634 10]

Zamo, I'm not asking you engage with the left. I'm not the left. I'm asking you to engage with racism.

 

Who has claimed that you are all deviants? Demonstrate that or admit you are just making stuff up.

 

Why on earth have you assumed that I am only addressing my concerns to right-wingers? Or that I think you are feeble-minded? If someone is doing this to you then address it to them. Stop projecting it on to me.

 

I am saying one thing (pretty much) - don't let racists get away with being racist.

 

I am saying it because the examples you rightly give about it being used wrongly have possibly made people reluctant to use it even when it is justified. It must be justified.

Edited December 1, 2016 by mikem8634

[Michael_W 11]

You have every right to your opinion. I am trying to find out what you are basing it on. All you have told me so far is your own eyes. You haven't explained how you evaluate things you haven't seen.

 

So, I'll ask again -

 

Why do you believe Islamic terrorism is a problem but racism/xenophobia isn't? In one case you believe external sources, in the other you don't, why?

 

---------- Post added 30-11-2016 at 19:57 ----------

 

It's a shame you have decided to stop. I hope you find the time to answer the question.

 

As it stands it seems that you are applying unequal standards that make it impossible for you to ever believe that racism and xenophobia are a problem, no matter what evidence you are presented with.

 

Unless, of course, you witness an act of racism or xenophobia, which will then, somehow, make all of the other reported accounts true.

 

You do not hold reporting of Islamic extremism to the same standard. That is the very essence of hypocrisy, and the only conclusion that can currently be drawn, if you refuse to discuss it any further, is that your main concern is that your current world view remains intact at all costs.

 

I evaluate things I have not seen pretty much like you but without jumping on bandwagons and beating drums, I look at things logically as I have all my life, hope that helps.

Where are my unequal standards, and do you not see your own ?

I have lived on this planet for almost 60 years, I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly .... I have frequented lots of places where racism and xenophobia according to some, should be rife ..... it is not and never has been IMHO !

What standards do I hold the reporting of Islamic extremism to exactly ?

As for hypocrisy your now missing your own by trying to post my thoughts which is what you have previously accused me of, and your guilty of believing that your current view of the world remains intact at all costs by the very nature of your repetitive posts and demanding people answer you pronto

[mikem8634 10]

I evaluate things I have not seen pretty much like you but without jumping on bandwagons and beating drums, I look at things logically as I have all my life, hope that helps.

Where are my unequal standards, and do you not see your own ?

I have lived on this planet for almost 60 years, I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly .... I have frequented lots of places where racism and xenophobia according to some, should be rife ..... it is not and never has been IMHO !

What standards do I hold the reporting of Islamic extremism to exactly ?

As for hypocrisy your now missing your own by trying to post my thoughts which is what you have previously accused me of, and your guilty of believing that your current view of the world remains intact at all costs by the very nature of your repetitive posts and demanding people answer you pronto

 

First of, I wasn't demanding you answer pronto, you can answer when you like. There is a tendency for people to stop answering when their only option is to admit the fallacies in their thinking. They also tend to avoid admitting the fallacies by claiming that I share them. Without demonstrating how. You have just done that.

 

 

I'll put the hypocrisy as simply as I can.

 

You will only accept that racism/xenophobia is a problem if you witness it with your own eyes.

 

You have not witnessed Islamic terrorism with your own eyes, but you accept that it is a problem.

 

Double standard.

 

 

I am not assuming I know your thoughts, I am drawing a conclusion from your words.

Edited December 1, 2016 by mikem8634