Hybrid vehicles question

[phil752 10]

Yeah, the site is rubbish. I managed to find this though.

 

https://www.renault.co.uk/services/renault-finance/battery-hire.html

 

£100/month for someone who does up to 10k miles/year (which isn't particularly high).

 

So that's another £3600 if you work on a 3 year ownership basis.

 

So you could buy something else costing up to £17600...

 

wow never knew that i thought you passed the cash and drive away, it does go to show people with a Green doctrine, will put up with a lot. Even when at present battery cars are far from Green.

[Cyclone 10]

Which if it were my money would probably be this.

 

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/mini/hatch/hatchback/1.5-petrol-3dr-2012-93200e633b33e49ccfbf20563daf6b9e?id=93200e633b33e49ccfbf20563daf6b9e&onesearchad=New&zero-to-60=TO_8&advertising-location=at_cars&postcode=s64au&fuel-consumption=OVER_60&price-from=17000&fuel-type=Petrol&sort=distance&radius=1500&price-to=18000&maximum-badge-engine-size=1.6&minimum-badge-engine-size=1.2&page=1

 

A mini hatch 1.5 136bhp, 60mpg (manufacturers lies).

[phil752 10]

Which if it were my money would probably be this.

 

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/mini/hatch/hatchback/1.5-petrol-3dr-2012-93200e633b33e49ccfbf20563daf6b9e?id=93200e633b33e49ccfbf20563daf6b9e&onesearchad=New&zero-to-60=TO_8&advertising-location=at_cars&postcode=s64au&fuel-consumption=OVER_60&price-from=17000&fuel-type=Petrol&sort=distance&radius=1500&price-to=18000&maximum-badge-engine-size=1.6&minimum-badge-engine-size=1.2&page=1

 

A mini hatch 1.5 136bhp, 60mpg (manufacturers lies).

 

the truth is from construction to destruction that it is more likely to be Greener than a Battery car.

[unbeliever 10]

the truth is from construction to destruction that it is more likely to be Greener than a Battery car.

 

Green-ness is not really a single number, so that's hard to say.

Are you suggesting that the total CO2 production will be lower perhaps, or are you weighting in other environmental concerns?

[Cyclone 10]

You have to think about the environmental impact of strip mining for the rare metals in the battery surely...

Not to mention the shipping and manufacturing costs involved in the battery as well, which, even if it has a lifespan of 1000 charges isn't good for much more than 3 years.

[unbeliever 10]

You have to think about the environmental impact of strip mining for the rare metals in the battery surely...

Not to mention the shipping and manufacturing costs involved in the battery as well, which, even if it has a lifespan of 1000 charges isn't good for much more than 3 years.

 

Not long ago I would have agreed.

But the latest gen batteries have a lifespan of 5000 cycles (not in low end vehicles yet), which changes the equation dramatically. Also the main ingredient is Lithium, which is the 25th most abundant element in the crust of the earth (that's not bad).

Also there's nothing to stop old batteries being refurbished when they reach end of life as the wear usually takes the form of structural damage t the electrodes and such rather than anything truly devastating to the materials involved.

R&D is ongoing to switch from Lithium to Sodium which is far more common.

[phil752 10]

Green-ness is not really a single number, so that's hard to say.

Are you suggesting that the total CO2 production will be lower perhaps, or are you weighting in other environmental concerns?

 

i would suggest that the production cost of the cars are about the same a shell is a shell. The production cost and environmental cost of the Battery are very high, in the mining, shipping material in the production of. It can be argued that CO2 in the production can out weigh, the CO2 of a similar size conventional car.

[Cyclone 10]

Not long ago I would have agreed.

But the latest gen batteries have a lifespan of 5000 cycles (not in low end vehicles yet), which changes the equation dramatically. Also the main ingredient is Lithium, which is the 25th most abundant element in the crust of the earth (that's not bad).

Also there's nothing to stop old batteries being refurbished when they reach end of life as the wear usually takes the form of structural damage t the electrodes and such rather than anything truly devastating to the materials involved.

R&D is ongoing to switch from Lithium to Sodium which is far more common.

 

Increases the lifespan to more like 15 years. But there's still a large environmental impact inherent in producing the batteries.

 

The lifespan of 5000 recharges is not down to physical damage, it's chemical changes in the anode and cathode isn't it?

 

And if we're talking about a Renault Zoe, then the battery probably isn't a high end Tesla model.

[geared 303]

Chemical change that physically damage the parts maybe?

[Cyclone 10]

I guess for people who are interested in saving money and environmental benefits are a bonus, is a cost of about £5/300 miles (real world costs from Tesla road test by autocar.co.uk).

If you do 10k/year that's £166, compared to petrol of about £1000 (based on 110/litre and 50mpg).

Over 3 years that would save you £2500...

 

Which in reality won't actually offset the battery hire of the renault zoe or the premium price in the first place.

 

Economically speaking, EV isn't a strong proposition, compared to an efficient modern ICE.

 

---------- Post added 24-11-2016 at 14:38 ----------

 

Chemical change that physically damage the parts maybe?

 

The aging process of lithium-ion is cell oxidation, a process that occurs naturally as part of usage and aging, and cannot be reversed. ( See BU-808b: What causes Li-ion to Die )

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_808b_what_causes_li_ion_to_die

[geared 303]

I doubt the Zoe is quite as efficient as the Tesla to be honest.

The claimed range is only 250, but real world testing shows the range varies from 130ish to 180ish, depending things like the weather and driver.

It's 41kwH battery costs about a fiver to fully charge (depending on your tariff).

 

 

If you got free charging at work or something then it might change things slightly.

Edited November 24, 2016 by geared

[Cyclone 10]

At most it would save you another few hundred quid a year.

The efficiency of the vehicles is huge, but the additional cost of buying them and renting a battery is also huge.