So about the electric vehicle and bicycle boom

[juju42 10]

Alright, so I just wanted to bring this up because it just kind of left me a bit stumped when I first thought about it.

 

So you have an electric mode of transportation. Right, brilliant, you are awesome sauce and deserve a gluten free vegan cookie with a glass of soy milk. Now, what do we do about "powering" your newly acquired vehicle? Well, plug that sucker into the wall, right? Huh... I guess that is alright, but where is that power coming from? Only about 14% of the energy created in the UK is from renewable sources, meaning that if you are using one of those fancy electric bikes, unless the bike racks have solar panels and farm the wind somehow, you are still using fossil fuels.

 

Hmmm... So those new fancy cars are also using fossil fuel energy, even though they are "electric". Well, so I guess what I'm curious about is how can this be circumvented? I mean, nuclear is great, as long as the plutonium is recycled in house and not turned into waste, which also decreases the chances of said waste being stolen or "lost" to be used by those who must not be named. But this is also a finite form of electricity, there is not enough plutonium to keep our society going forever. Maybe we can harness waves? There are a lot of ocean waves and tides here in the UK which can be harnessed, but salt water is quite corrosive. Solar is great, but it is constantly raining here! Especially Scotland, it is just a deluge 24/7 (I get most of my factual information regarding weather patterns in England from "Little Britain")!!!! It would be cool if we could have some sort of solar panels in space which sent us the energy through some sort of wifi. If I am correct, the tech has been tested in small experiments, and someone under the name of Nicola Tesla had a similar idea. Free energy for the world (sounds like some cheeky communist rhetoric if you ask me), but thankfully in the name of the free anarcho-capitalist market, he failed miserably.

 

So, I guess the question is, what to do? Using the electric vehicle is good and all, but you are still depending on electric created by non-renewable fuels. Le sigh. What do, what do, and why?

 

Two words, zero point energy, well three words but you get the point.

Edited October 14, 2016 by juju42

[Cyclone 10]

Power stations are more efficient than ICE of course, and they also have the advantage of not pumping out fumes at eye level in the city centre.

That said, the environmental benefits of a Prius are questionable when you look at the cradle to grave costs.

An electric bike on the other hand, compared to a car, will use much less fuel, no matter where that fuel comes from, simply because it's so much lighter. 20kg bike+rider instead of 1500Kg car+driver.

[L00b 441]

That said, the environmental benefits of a Prius are questionable when you look at the cradle to grave costs.

It'd be interesting to contrast these costs with those of a non-ICE/full EV car.

 

I mean, unlike (full- or partial-) ICE powered cars, these are theoretically good for unlimited gazillions of miles (subject to tyres/brakes/shocks/batteries being changed as needed).

 

Who'd ever need to change a full EV car, other than through personal taste or changing circumstances? No other maintenance than the above and no degrading performance.

 

Would average length of ownership be significantly longer? Resulting in less cars being made overall, over time? I'm thinking so.

 

Of course, that then throws up the challenge of what to replace the corresponding loss of economic activity with...

[eHallam 10]

When you think about it electric cars seems to be the present, not the future. Renewable energy supply is stably increasing over past years when electricity generated using this method was 14.9% in 2013 and 25% in 2015 which shows 10% increase over two years. The world is concerned about pollution and eventually planets energy users will move to renewable energy (which will be like big bang event for car makers) leaving low percentage on nuclear, coal or other way generated power. At the moment it's very popular to get electric bikes, cars and boosted boards (motorised skateboards, which is perfect to skip all traffics) to travel efficiently. Scientists still has big hopes to finally develop nuclear fusion plants, engines etc. This should be huge impact on oil companies too. And juju42, nuclear power stations are powered by uranium and only rarely by plutonium.

 

Thanks, that's interesting topic I think!

Edited October 14, 2016 by eHallam

[Cyclone 10]

It'd be interesting to contrast these costs with those of a non-ICE/full EV car.

 

I mean, unlike (full- or partial-) ICE powered cars, these are theoretically good for unlimited gazillions of miles (subject to tyres/brakes/shocks/batteries being changed as needed).

 

Who'd ever need to change a full EV car, other than through personal taste or changing circumstances? No other maintenance than the above and no degrading performance.

 

Would average length of ownership be significantly longer? Resulting in less cars being made overall, over time? I'm thinking so.

 

Of course, that then throws up the challenge of what to replace the corresponding loss of economic activity with...

 

Battery packs cost about 10k and have about 1000 charge cycles...

 

All the other components wear out as well, no clutch of course, but it was the cradle to grave environmentals that I was talking about.

 

---------- Post added 14-10-2016 at 15:11 ----------

 

When you think about it electric cars seems to be the present, not the future. Renewable energy supply is stably increasing over past years when electricity generated using this method was 14.9% in 2013 and 25% in 2015 which shows 10% increase over two years. The world is concerned about pollution and eventually planets energy users will move to renewable energy (which will be like big bang event for car makers) leaving low percentage on nuclear, coal or other way generated power. At the moment it's very popular to get electric bikes, cars and boosted boards (motorised skateboards, which is perfect to skip all traffics) to travel efficiently. Scientists still has big hopes to finally develop nuclear fusion plants, engines etc. This should be huge impact on oil companies too. And juju42, nuclear power stations are powered by uranium and only rarely by plutonium.

 

Thanks, that's interesting topic I think!

 

What you describe is impossible as it stands. The UK cannot supply itself using primarily renewable sources because the wind often stops blowing. We HAVE to have sufficient regular capacity to cover that time, and that capacity is only economically sensible if we use it most of the time.

I don't see that petrol use in cars is all that closely related to mains power generation though.

[L00b 441]

Battery packs cost about 10k and have about 1000 charge cycles...

You looking at current or old data?

 

The latest LiFePO4 types exceed these stats quite comfortably. Even Deep Cycle Lead Acid have long been given at 3k to 5k cycles. Wiki also gives current $/w battery production costs at $145 (optimistic, methinks) which totes up a fair bit under the $18k ($750/w) of the Leaf's batteries in 2010.

 

It's getting better.

All the other components wear out as well, no clutch of course, but it was the cradle to grave environmentals that I was talking about.

They certainly do. But you aren't going to replace your body, bumpers, doors, <etc.> or repaint it every 15k miles, or even after a 100k miles, are you? Depending on your annual mileage and garaging it or not, you might have to after half a million miles, mind Edited October 14, 2016 by L00b

[Cyclone 10]

I did say Prius :-) So this may have improved with newer vehicles.

 

It's still a big issue though.

 

I don't see how the rest of the maintenance is any different to an ICE car. Modern bodywork can last for 20+ years with reasonable maintenance, makes little difference if it's electric or ICE. But if you have to change the batteries at 15 years old, it's going to be scrap.

[apelike 10]

 

Two words, zero point energy, well three words but you get the point.

 

No such thing exists.

[Mr Bloke 1,445]

No such thing exists.

:hihi:

Another homework assignment bites the dust!

[apelike 10]

Actually I should amend that to say it does exist but of no use to hound nor hare as a source of usable energy.

[geared 303]

It'd be interesting to contrast these costs with those of a non-ICE/full EV car.

 

I mean, unlike (full- or partial-) ICE powered cars, these are theoretically good for unlimited gazillions of miles (subject to tyres/brakes/shocks/batteries being changed as needed).

 

Who'd ever need to change a full EV car, other than through personal taste or changing circumstances? No other maintenance than the above and no degrading performance.

 

Would average length of ownership be significantly longer? Resulting in less cars being made overall, over time? I'm thinking so.

 

Of course, that then throws up the challenge of what to replace the corresponding loss of economic activity with...

 

very unlikely IMO.

 

Engine reliability is excellent these days, if you stick to the service schedule you can get mega miles out of the engine.

 

It's usually the cumulative cost of repairs that sends most cars to the scrap yard.

When you need a full suspension refresh, new front brakes and two new tyres on a car thats worth a few hundred quid - thats when most get crushed.

 

Any electric car is still going to have issues with normal components, along with it's own issues like the battery pack and all the fancy electrics they cram into these cars.

[Obelix 11]

Power stations are more efficient than ICE of course,

 

They are?

 

You might want to look at the numbers. A good efficient high temperature AGR reactor is about 45% efficient. CCGT perhaps a little more. Coal is less, and renewables is tricky as it's sometimes not there, and those towser take energy to build and whatenot.

 

So lets say we have 50% efficiency. Theres a 12% grid loss on the National Grid plus local grids combined. Then there is battery losses on charging, and the motors are not 100% efficient of course.

 

50% less 12% distribution loss, and the numbers get down below 40%.

 

A diesel engine is 40% efficient.

 

In terms of energy saving - electric cars are a dead duck. They are not as good as a decent quality diesel. Stick a turbocharger on a petrol and they are probably not as good as a petrol engine either....

 

But they do move the pollution away. And if we ever get a decent 4th gen fleet of nuclear plants that can burn actinides we may start to get somewhere....

 

---------- Post added 14-10-2016 at 16:22 ----------

 

No such thing exists.

 

Quantum mechanics would strongly disagree with you.