WARNING: any Sheffield leasehold property owners?

[Strix 11]

I don't know if this link has been provided before, but it looks like the groundrent is now only payable if demanded:

 

http://www.lease-advice.org/newintro.htm

[Maddy 15]

I also waned to say I have found this thread very useful.

We were informed when we bought our house that on a block of 4 £5 a year was payablke but the deeds indicated our house was no longer liable for ground rent.

Our next door neighbours had a shock when they moved as they suddenly got hit with around £300 is back rent and fees. I don'y know for def but I think they paid it as it was holding up the house sale. The other 2 houses in the block of 4 are owned by a housing association so who knows if they pay.

I find this a very confusing matter and one thats often dealt with in a haphazzard manner, people being resposnsible for collecting money off their neighbours or being expected to pay a bill that never arrives!

Anyway I feel a bit more informed on the matter now so thanks everyone. If I do get a nasty bill one day I'll have some ideas of how to start tackling it

[Mundo 10]

Hi all

 

Just resurrecting an old-ish thread to say that Estates and Management Ltd are up to their tricks again. My partner and I just received a "reminder" demanding £5 ground rent (fair enough) and a £20 admin charge (*not* fair enough). Needless to say we never received the original letter. For what it's worth, we live on Chesterfield Road.

 

Once I've taken legal advice I'll try to post back, I've a feeling a few searches will be run on this forum on "Estates and Management Ltd"...

 

Thanks to all the original posters... and if anyone wants to post an update on how they've got on with E&M, that'd be really interesting... :-D

 

Max

 

:edit: for what it's worth I have *no idea* why this post appeared under Mundo's username, it's sure-as-hell not my username...

[Stronghands 10]

Hi to all ye fellow sufferers of ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT.

 

Firstly, thanks to all for the great advice, facts, opinions, contact details and initiators and posters to this thread.

 

Note - I will mention ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT in full throughout this so it shows up on the search engines as there is so little about. I bet people are paying ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT'S ADMIN FEE all year round!

 

IN SHORT - DON'T PANIC, DON'T WORRY - DON'T PAY THE ADMIN FEE! DON'T BE CONCERNED BY THIS LEGALLY WORDED NONSENSE - IT IS SIMPLE TO RESOLVE. IF YOU TAKE A LITTLE TIME - WAIT PATIENTLY - CONFIDENT OF THE FACT ULTIMATELY YOU WILL NOT PAY THE ADMIN FEE IF YOU DEAL WITH THIS CORRECTLY.

 

Don't concern yourself with the letter, the threats, the premium rate number etc etc. Your expense will be the ground rent and any arrears - stay happy - sleep well - re

[Stronghands 10]

Here is fuller extract of the act if you are interested .

 

2004 No. 3096

 

 

LANDLORD AND TENANT, ENGLAND

 

 

The Landlord and Tenant (Notice of Rent) (England) Regulations 2004

 

Made 22nd November 2004

Laid before Parliament 30th November 2004

Coming into force 28th February 2005

 

The First Secretary of State, in exercise of the powers conferred by section 166 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002[1], hereby makes the following Regulations:

 

Citation, commencement, application and interpretation

1. - (1) These Regulations may be cited as the Landlord and Tenant (Notice of Rent) (England) Regulations 2004 and shall come into force on 28th February 2005.

 

(2) These Regulations apply in relation to dwellings[2] in England only[3].

 

(3) In these Regulations, "the 2002 Act" means the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002.

 

Additional content and form of notice of rent due

2. - (1) A notice under subsection (1) of section 166 of the 2002 Act (requirement to notify long leaseholders that rent is due) shall contain (in addition to the information specified in accordance with paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (2) of that section and, if applicable, paragraph © of that subsection) -

 

 

(a) the name of the leaseholder to whom the notice is given;

 

(b) the period to which the rent demanded is attributable;

 

© the name of the person to whom payment is to be made, and the address for payment;

 

(d) the name of the landlord by whom the notice is given and, if not specified pursuant to sub-paragraph © above, his address; and

 

(e) the information provided in the notes to the form set out in the Schedule to these Regulations.

 

 

(2) A notice under subsection (1) of section 166 of the 2002 Act shall be in the form set out in the Schedule to these Regulations.

 

 

 

Signed by authority of the First Secretary of State

 

 

Keith Hill

Minister of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister

 

22nd November 2004

 

 

 

 

 

SCHEDULE

Regulation 2

 

 

 

FORM OF RENT DEMAND NOTICE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

EXPLANATORY NOTE

 

(This note is not part of the Regulations)

 

 

These Regulations relate to the form and content of notices requiring the payment of ground rent.

 

Regulation 2 supplements section 166(2) of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002, which requires a notice under section 166(1) of that Act, relating to the payment of ground rent, to specify the amount due, the date on which the tenant is liable to make the payment and, if different, the date on which the tenant would have been liable to make the payment in accordance with the lease. The additional requirements specified in regulation 2 include the provision of notes for both leaseholders and landlords. The content of the notes is set out in the Schedule to the Regulations, as part of the prescribed form of notice under section 166(1).

 

A Regulatory Impact Assessment has been prepared in connection with these Regulations. A copy may be obtained from the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, Leasehold Reform Branch, Zone 2/J6 Eland House, Bressenden Place, London SW1E 5DU (Tel 020 7944 3462).

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes:

 

[1] 2002 c.15. See the definition of "prescribed" in section 166(9) and the definition of "the appropriate national authority" in section 179(1).back

[2] See section 166(9) of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 , the definition of "the 1985 Act" in section 179(2) of that Act, and section 2 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985.back

 

[3] The powers conferred by section 166 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 are exercisable, as respects Wales, by the National Assembly for Wales. See the definition of "prescribed" in section 166(9) and the definition of "the appropriate national authority" in section 179(1).back

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Stronghands 10]

Hi to all ye fellow sufferers of ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT. This was supposed to go first but was blocked because I had web links on.

 

Firstly, thanks to all for the great advice, facts, opinions, contact details and initiators and posters to this thread.

 

Note - I will mention ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT in full throughout this so it shows up on the search engines as there is so little about. I bet people are paying ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT'S ADMIN FEE all year round!

 

IN SHORT - DON'T PANIC, DON'T WORRY - DON'T PAY THE ADMIN FEE! DON'T BE CONCERNED BY THIS LEGALLY WORDED NONSENSE - IT IS SIMPLE TO RESOLVE. IF YOU TAKE A LITTLE TIME - WAIT PATIENTLY - CONFIDENT OF THE FACT ULTIMATELY YOU WILL NOT PAY THE ADMIN FEE IF YOU DEAL WITH THIS CORRECTLY.

 

Don't concern yourself with the letter, the threats, the premium rate number etc etc. Your expense will be the ground rent and any arrears - stay happy - sleep well - rejoice at getting one over on a bunch of cowboys who use the law to extort money from people and as normal the government allow them to get away with it.

 

I know this may concern some of you as this is the very reason they work in this way - they prey on the fact that most people are honest, don't want debt but do want a clear conscience. Nor do most people want a run in with the law - spoiling their credit record and so on....

 

ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT use legal sounding jargon and aggressive letters etc to push you into paying.

 

I had the same problem all for a couple of quid.

 

If you have just moved in to a house then you are liable for any outstanding ground rent charges and you have to pay whatever the ground rent is - your solicitor should have ensured that there were no extra liabilities with the house.

 

Also if you get a note saying that ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT have now taken over as your "landlords" and the arrears are £X. Check that the arrears are correct. I would not be surprised if ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT add a few years on - they will do anything for a couple of quid!

 

If you get a reminder with arrears you know you have not paid - then you have to. However, do not pay the ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT ADMIN FEE.

 

The legal bit and there is much of it on the net is basically this;

 

SKIP THIS BIT IF YOU WANT

 

Ground Rent

Most long residential leases require ground rent to be paid on a particular day whether or not the landlord demands payment. There is evidence that a number of landlords do not bother to ask for payment and then, when leaseholders forget to pay by the due date, sometimes demand excessive additional charges for collection.

 

The 2002 Act provides that:

a leaseholder will only be liable for any ground rent payable under his or her lease where he or she has received a written notice from the landlord in the prescribed form. The notice must specify the amount due, the date by which payment is to be made and (if different) the date on which the amount would have been payable under the terms of lease;

the notice must also contain any other information that may be prescribed by regulation;

the date payment is to be made must be at least 30 days and not more than 60 days after the day the notice is given, and must not be before the date it would normally be payable under the terms of the lease;

the landlord will be prevented from making any additional charge in respect of the rent unless:

a) they have issued a written notice; and

b) the ground rent is still unpaid after the due date.

 

 

Notice for payment of ground rent

The leaseholder is not liable to pay the ground rent unless the landlord has demanded it. The demand must be in the prescribed form and must specify:

the amount of the rent due;

the date in advance on which the leaseholder is liable to pay it, or if the demand is sent after the due date, the date on which it would have been payable under the terms of the lease.

The Notice of Demand must include a summary of the leaseholder's legal rights and obligations. The date specified for payment must be no less than 30 days but no more than 60 days after date of service of the notice. It may be sent by post to the address of the house or flat to which it relates, unless the leaseholder has previously notified the landlord of an alternative address.

 

TO HERE - START READING

 

 

The landlord does need to formally demand payment in the prescribed manner under section 166. The latest legislation came onto the statute books in Feb 2005 - so it's all in.

 

However, they are trying to get round this by sending out a "reminder" - having never sent a first demand. This then falls between two stools - did they not send it or are you denying you did - they would swear down they did.

 

Check the lease advice website and look under 1985 act decisions then ctrl f and do search

 

RPTS national help line is 0845 600 3178 and The Leaseholders' advisory service is 0207 490 9580 and is a waste of time as they will just tell you this.

 

 

As soon as the new laws were out tried to get round it by saying that they had sent out a reminder. You would not be able to prove that you had not received it - no further forward.

 

However, there is a section on historical tribunal decisions and ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT are not mentioned once - the reason is they will not take you to court - there letters are a flimsy front and they will not go to the expense or risk the publicity and resultant loss of "Passive-Payers" who give in at the letter.

 

I have already spoken to someone who just paid the admin fee (it ended up at £40). They were gutted when they found out that they had been HAD. They found out it is £50 to take to a tribunal and the charges go up and up and without seeing your deeds etc - you may actually be in breach of contract. So once again without spending more time and money you do not know exactly where you stand. So they decided to pay for "peace of mind"!!!

 

However, E & M have loads of complaints but no entries on the tribunals - I can only think people either pay on time (as I will via standing order) or pay the admin and bill or don’t pay the admin and E & M eventually drop it.

 

You can get the idea of how they work by posts on this site and you know how it makes you feel - that's why you're here.

 

I called my local trading standards and I am afraid on this one they were useless advising me to pay it if I had missed a payment - in short they knew nothing and started to shoot from the hip. I asked them to investigate and they did call me back after the weekend - saying it was a bit of a grey area etc etc. They would commit to nothing other than signing for their pay check!

 

Do whatever homework you want to ensure you are confident of your rights - there is an abundance of information out there on the legals but not this scam. I am not a legal monkey and can only go off my own experience. However, I did make an informed decisions having spent a while looking into it. This forum has the most practical information I have found to date.

 

Do a search on the Internet (in the library if you don't have it at home).

 

 

SO TO CUT TO THE CHASE.

 

Don't worry and don't pay it. Here's how -

 

1 If you have a copy of your deeds or service agreement - check it. Now unless it has something particularly onerous it should be fairly straightforward. The crux is this they have to demand payment in a prescribed manner. Sites like this will allow more and more people to prove that ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT operate in a deceptive way as they do not send out reminders and offer a premium rate number for their worried "customers"

 

2 Record everything the dates, times of calls and letters and keep copies - record your conversations with them if it makes you feel better. Be polite and calm.

 

3 Call them on the following numbers - DO NOT CALL THE ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT ON THE PREMIUM RATE NUMBER ON THE LETTER.

 

For general inquiries contact Estates And Management at Euro House, Administration Team, 131/ 133 Ballards Lane, London N3 1GR. Telephone 020 8349 5503 OR 020 8349 1919 (AUTOMATED SERVICE) or 020 8349 5500, 9am to 5pm.

 

I wouldn't bother to leave a message - they may just delete it.

 

** Be polite and calm - they may just let it drop state you have received a reminder but I have not received a demand for payment in the prescribed format. Explain that you except you owe the ground rent and will forward a cheque for payment within 7 days but you will not be paying the "admin fee". Then wait and see what they say!

 

Expect a bit of stalling as they may try to test your resolve - at the same time I don’t think they can tell which number you are calling in on as the premium rate and normal rate lines will end up at the same phone - so they may presume you have called on the premium rate number so they will put you on hold for a short while - as they pick their nose talk about Coronation Street etc and have a big contemptible smile on their face thinking they are ripping you off as you are on hold.

 

MINE WENT LIKE THIS - I called and spoke to Holly - I said text as at above ** - she stalled a little - put me on hold then came back with - they will let it go this time - I also asked for a standing order form and a price on buying the leasehold.

 

Buying the leasehold may be worth considering for some as it will get them out of your hair and there can be restrictions in it regards planning permissions, modification and extensions etc. Mine came back at 50 times the annual ground rent - personally I'd rather have let them administer my lease - making nothing. What is a couple of quid worth now and in 20 years? They will be making nothing. I'm happy to pay them for 50 years.

 

However, take advice (and post it here so everyone can benefit - and stop admin payments to them) to see what the best position is for you.

 

I SENT THE CHEQUE USING RECORDED DELIVERY.

 

I called a week later and confirmed that my account was clear and asked again for the Standing order form.

 

I received the Standing order form a week later. I have to say that at all times ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT were polite - so don't feel that you are going to get no where and have all guns blazing. They are aware of the new Regulations and use their letter as a hook - don't bite!!!

 

IF YOU RECEIVE AGGRESSION, THREATS OR STALLING NONSENSE.

 

Simply mention that you have lived in the house for X amount of years with no problems, that it is totally illogical to be avoiding settlement of such a frivolous amount, that you have an excellent credit record (even if you don't).

 

THEN QUOTE THIS

 

Under section 166 of The Common hold And Leasehold Reform Act 2002 the requirement to notify long leaseholders that rent is due) shall contain -

 

(a) the name of the leaseholder to whom the notice is given;

 

(b) the period to which the rent demanded is attributable;

 

© the name of the person to whom payment is to be made, and the address for payment;

 

(d) the name of the landlord by whom the notice is given and, if not specified pursuant to sub-paragraph © above, his address; and

 

(e) the information provided in the notes to the form set out in the Schedule to these Regulations.

 

That you will as a "goodwill gesture" forward a cheque for payment of ground rent and you require a standing order form to ensure this doesn't happen again in the future.

 

 

I would then leave it at that. Send the payment for ground rent using recorded delivery and with a covering letter stating the above.

 

Also mention that you now subscribe to a website which has contact details of many people who have been treated by ESTATES AND MANAGEMENT in the same despicable and exploitable way.

 

If they return your cheques or don't cash them etc - just record it all and send payment at the correct time each year with a payment covering the arrears of the previous years.

 

If this was to go to a tribunal - you would have performed as well as could be expected. They won't take you to court for the admin fee though as the tribunal knows the score.

 

Good luck to all and spread this message as much as you can. Tell your neighbours, work colleagues, friend and a family etc - it's better than talking about Coronation Street anyway!!!

[PIXIETRIXIE 10]

Thankyou for your warning.

i bought a leasehold house five years ago and never have had any problems until recentlty when the lease was sold to estates and management.

they sent me the ground rent bill for my house and several others on the estate.

rang them and told them we only owned the one property which seems to have sorted it out for us ,but don,t know how the others have faired.

they have offered to sell us the lease at about three times the original cost.

we are planning to have an extension and you have to inform the leasehold company, so after reading your post I will expect problems.

thanks again for your warning.

[Caryh 10]

Since having the same problem as most other people with estates and management,I have now set a standing order up for our ground rent. It was set up using estates and managements form, and was correctly taken on September the 30th, but the money was recredited to my account on the 5th of October. It would appear that they dont want our money, and we'll seee if they end a demand for payment, complete with the admin fee.

 

 

I'll let you know what happens.

 

 

Regards

 

Cary

[Stronghands 10]

Hi Cary

 

They never fail to amaze.

 

I suggest you keep your bank statements and you could even get a copy of the Standing Orders currently set up with your account - demonstrating that the SO's were in force at the time and afterwards. This should be free - just ask for a print out. I would also ask for a letter stating you did not recall the money provided you can get something after explaining why you need it for free.

 

Under the Standing order and Direct debit rules - if you say somebody has incorrectly received money from your account via SO or DD the bank has to refund you - but the bank normally look into this.

 

I am wondering if they are going to try something on - regards the bank took the money back.

 

You could/should contact Estates and Management and ask them why they have returned your payment - it may be a genuine administrative error.

 

I simply say all this because I look forward to the day when Estates and Management and their ilk are only able to collect their ground rent fees - rendering their business useless. As I said - a couple of quid per year in a few years time after admin costs is not a viable business.

 

Good luck with it. They may try it on but they wouldn't stand a chance in court. Also with more feedback from totally unconnected people all stating the same scams and treatment - I hope their demise is very soon.

[boltonpete 10]

Great information here, Just to let you know, estates and management are still going strong and have popped up here in Bolton.

 

Approx 12 months ago i received a letter from them demanding ground rent, I sent a polite letter asking them to prove they had the right to demand the money (as the previous freeholder had not notified me of any change of ownership) and once recieved I would happily pay the amount requested. about six weeks later I received a letter from my old freeholder stating he had sold the freehold to a company owned by estates and management (they have a lot of names!), I imediately sent a cheque off for the ground rent. a week later this was returned as they insisted i now owed them a late payment fee of £20.00, despite them not responding to my previous letter! anyway, have refused to pay it, every six months i send a cheque for the amount of ground rent owed and they return it a week later, what fun! the so called total outstanding continues to rise!

 

They have also offered me the freehold for £740 despite the ground rent being £2.94 every six months!

 

a friend of mine mentioned that the fact that they are refusing payment, eg sending cheques back can have a legal implication here but i'm not clear if that right or not, anyone else aware???

[Andy 10]

Originally posted by Stronghands

Under the Standing order and Direct debit rules - if you say somebody has incorrectly received money from your account via SO or DD the bank has to refund you - but the bank normally look into this.

 

I must correct a small error here - your statment is true only for Direct Debits. Standing Orders are controlled by the account holder, and therefore the bank are only liable if they have made an error. Standing orders are not covered by the DD Guarantee.

[Stronghands 10]

Thanks Andy - I stand corrected.

 

Do you know what consequences the returned cheques have in boltonpete's case or the problem caryh is having?

 

Just in case you have knowledge of the banking system.

 

Thanks