Beggars, homeless, street drinkers & drug users in Sheffield!

[Cyclone 10]

17 hours ago, woodmally said:

Its not a moral judgement at all its an evidence based judgement.  I have seen the beggars give money to the dealers in the city centre.  I have also seen these same beggars high on spice collapsed in our city. The only way they will get this money is from begging. So if we give money to them there is a risk they will spend it on drugs.  Would you buy an alcoholic a pint or give a gambler money for a flutter at the bookies?  I wouldnt its not helpful.  Help us Help our umbrella charity in the city also advises against giving them money.

You're making a moral judgement about using drugs and alcohol. Duh.

17 hours ago, woodmally said:

Its not a moral judgement at all its an evidence based judgement.  I have seen the beggars give money to the dealers in the city centre.  I have also seen these same beggars high on spice collapsed in our city. The only way they will get this money is from begging. So if we give money to them there is a risk they will spend it on drugs.  Would you buy an alcoholic a pint or give a gambler money for a flutter at the bookies?  I wouldnt its not helpful.  Help us Help our umbrella charity in the city also advises against giving them money.

You're making a moral judgement about using drugs and alcohol. Duh.

 

In fact I said that quite clearly

 

"You've made a judgement about their drug and alcohol use, a moral judgement"

 

So why pretend that I said something else?

10 hours ago, kidley said:

i wish people would refrain from calling these people homeless, most of these people are not homeless.

 

please dont ask me how i know

Because you don't and can't give an acceptable answer.

[woodmally 10]

2 hours ago, Cyclone said:

You're making a moral judgement about using drugs and alcohol. Duh.

You're making a moral judgement about using drugs and alcohol. Duh.

 

In fact I said that quite clearly

 

"You've made a judgement about their drug and alcohol use, a moral judgement"

 

So why pretend that I said something else?

Because you don't and can't give an acceptable answer.

Firstly are you telling me then that these people are spending the money on food, drink clothes and a place to sleep and not spending it on drugs. Like I said before I see them spiced up in the city centre. The people collapsed like zombies isnt a judgement its a fact. If you want visual evidence there is lots of pictures online to prove my point. 

Next you will be telling me they are not on drugs and these people were just relaxing having a good time

 

https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/worker-fears-spice-users-are-making-sheffield-city-centre-unsafe-1-9288379

[Anna B 1,414]

5 hours ago, Albert smith said:

We never had all these people sleeping rough because every one was busy working in the steel and cutlery trades as well as down the pit, we now have certain kids leaving school with little hope of getting a job or a place to live due to many different causes inc no social housing for single people , Was told a few years ago that the council had ninety thousand folk waiting to get a property and that their chances were nil .

Indeed. 

The situation is bad, and not about to get any better under current trends.

[alchresearch 214]

Beggar banned from Sheffield centre for five years is arrested again

https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/beggar-banned-from-sheffield-centre-for-five-years-is-arrested-again-1-9488378

[woodmally 10]

15 minutes ago, alchresearch said:

Beggar banned from Sheffield centre for five years is arrested again

https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/beggar-banned-from-sheffield-centre-for-five-years-is-arrested-again-1-9488378

Looks like another shop has had enough of the problem too given this post on Facebook.  

 

[Cyclone 10]

7 hours ago, woodmally said:

Firstly are you telling me then that these people are spending the money on food, drink clothes and a place to sleep and not spending it on drugs. Like I said before I see them spiced up in the city centre. The people collapsed like zombies isnt a judgement its a fact. If you want visual evidence there is lots of pictures online to prove my point. 

Next you will be telling me they are not on drugs and these people were just relaxing having a good time

 

https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/worker-fears-spice-users-are-making-sheffield-city-centre-unsafe-1-9288379

No, I'm clearly not telling you that.

Are you actually reading the words that I'm writing?

 

YOU ARE MAKING A JUDGEMENT ABOUT WHETHER USING DRUGS IS GOOD OR BAD.  That's a moral judgement.

[woodmally 10]

5 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

No, I'm clearly not telling you that.

Are you actually reading the words that I'm writing?

 

YOU ARE MAKING A JUDGEMENT ABOUT WHETHER USING DRUGS IS GOOD OR BAD.  That's a moral judgement.

I get you now and yes I think taking drugs is bad. Call it a moral judgement if you wish but I've seen so much damage done by drugs I'd rather it be kept illegal. 

[Cyclone 10]

Call it a moral judgement...  What else might we call it?

 

And going back to the point, your moral judgement about how you think they'll spend their money results in your lack of compassion.

[onewheeldave 22]

On 12/10/2018 at 11:26 PM, woodmally said:

No but has he been offered accommodation?  Maybe read this blog and let me know your thoughts. http://www.helpushelp.uk/blog/our-outreach-teams-out-on-the-streets-daily 

As previously covered, many people cannot deal with the bureaucracy, forms and procedures necessary to engage with much of the offered 'support'.

 

Particularly any support connected with the council. It's the neoliberal system way of doing things- offer 'support' that most of the victims can't engage with, them blame them for turning down help and 'choosing' to be homeless. 

 

Anyone who's gone through the misery of having to apply for support for an autistic child, or the bureaucratic farce of a PIP or other disability benefit assessment, will be aware of how the system blocks those legally entitled to, and, in desperate need of, proper support, by making the process so horrible that many have to give up as it worsens their mental health.

 

Then the likes of the poster above can chirp in with, 'well, the supports out there, if they can't be bothered to engage with it, then they're choosing...... etc, etc'.

 

 

On 12/10/2018 at 3:09 PM, Cyclone said:

I know this is 135 pages long, but I think we covered reasons why the genuinely homeless turn to drink and drugs back in the early teens of pages!  They have a grindingly hard and harsh existence.  It's self medication effectively.

Just as Cyclone says.

 

In addition, I'd point out that when it comes to alcohol, self medication is not the only factor. When people have to endure unremitting periods of sleeping outside in the cold, alcohol abuse is almost inevitable, as alcohol, while it doesn't help the body deal with the cold, it is the only available thing which can, to some extent, numb the mind, and make the ordeal that little bit easier to bear.

 

 

[Anna B 1,414]

10 hours ago, onewheeldave said:

As previously covered, many people cannot deal with the bureaucracy, forms and procedures necessary to engage with much of the offered 'support'.

 

Particularly any support connected with the council. It's the neoliberal system way of doing things- offer 'support' that most of the victims can't engage with, them blame them for turning down help and 'choosing' to be homeless. 

 

Anyone who's gone through the misery of having to apply for support for an autistic child, or the bureaucratic farce of a PIP or other disability benefit assessment, will be aware of how the system blocks those legally entitled to, and, in desperate need of, proper support, by making the process so horrible that many have to give up as it worsens their mental health.

 

Then the likes of the poster above can chirp in with, 'well, the supports out there, if they can't be bothered to engage with it, then they're choosing...... etc, etc'.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

Quote

 

This is a huge issue, and I'm glad to see it highlighted here. Go to the Disabilty section of the 'Sheffield Interest Groups' section, and you will see evidence of just how impossible and unpleasant the system has been made by the Neoliberal Tory party.  It has been much discussed there, but doesn't have the footfall to reach a majority of people who have never had to deal with these people.

 

To put disabled and people in serious ill health, both physical and mental, through this it is just plain nasty and vindictiive. I don't know if there are any records kept on how many people give up the process in despair, but the figures on the suicides  as a result, have been calculated by independent foundations, but suppressed by the government.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/27/thousands-died-after-fit-for-work-assessment-dwp-figures

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2117718/British-people-committing-suicide-escape-poverty-Is-State-wants.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/04/benefits-assessments-damaging-lives-hardworking-britain

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/pip-investigation-horrific-suicide-question-sparks-fresh-assessment-inquiry-calls/

 

Please excuse above mess posting my own comment after Onewheeldave. (Post1642) New forum layout- still not used to it. Sorry.

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Anna B

[woodmally 10]

9 hours ago, Anna B said:

 

 

Please excuse above mess posting my own comment after Onewheeldave. (Post1642) New forum layout- still not used to it. Sorry.

 

I am not the one that says help is out there. Its the charities themselves that say we shouldn't give to beggars and homeless as it would prevent them engaging with services.  As for help with the bureaucracy there  is a lot of homeless charities out there that will help them with forms etc.    If all the charities are saying dont give money but help out and give money to charities and they are the experts with thes problems then I trust their view. 

 

[Anna B 1,414]

1 hour ago, woodmally said:

I am not the one that says help is out there. Its the charities themselves that say we shouldn't give to beggars and homeless as it would prevent them engaging with services.  As for help with the bureaucracy there  is a lot of homeless charities out there that will help them with forms etc.    If all the charities are saying dont give money but help out and give money to charities and they are the experts with thes problems then I trust their view. 

 

Fair enough. 

It's just that I don't have the same faith in 'the help that's out there. . .'

 

I'm not blaming the charities who do their best, but the system, which seems designed to confound the applicants and takes months (sometimes years) to reach a conclusion.  I know people who have been 20 months from the start, via applications, reconsiderations, appeals and court hearings just to get the PIP they were clearly entitled to in the first place, and that's with help from the professionals,  -for which there are waiting lists.

 

Heaven knows how people go on, on their own. As I say, many ill people just don't have the stamina or mental capacity and give up.