Tories to bring back Grammar schools

[Mister M 1,625]

You cannot force people to integrate .

 

You can't, but I do think that dividing children on the basis of religion to be pernicious. Therefore we shouldn't be creating barriers between people.

[biotechpete 10]

So now any kids that's not 'academic' is disruptive? I really think it's your view that kids who aren't getting A* at GCSE are somehow a problem that's the real issue here. I went to a grammar school. We had kids arrested for dealing drugs, arson and various serious assaults. Don't for one minute think that 'bright' means 'good' and vice versa.

 

To be fair to Justin, there is some form of correlation between certain types of property crime and low educational attainment (or rather there is a link to being caught and convicted).

 

---------- Post added 08-03-2017 at 17:58 ----------

 

Originally Posted by Justin Smith :

Crime prevention is exceptionally important. It isn`t just the cost of crime, which is massive, it`s the blight on people`s lives, both actual and imagined. Thus, if having extremely well resourced special schools improves the educational attainment of the excluded pupils, enables the kids in the other schools to study better without disruption, and reduces crime, it`s worth it, more or less however much it costs.

 

 

So what do you think we should be doing with these disruptive pupils ? The question is even more relevant to anyone in favour, or at least not against, Grammar schools, because those kids going to a Grammar are much less likely to have to put up with the disruptive pupils.....

 

We already have pupil referral units to deal with especially disruptive pupils. The back stories of these pupils are normally pretty horrific; domestic violence, family deaths, drug use. It seems to me that this is more of a sociological issue than educational. I personally would put therapists in schools to address problems at an early stage. But pupil referral units seem to be pretty effective.

 

I wouldn't necessarily make the link between disruption and academic potential though. I had two classmates that would today be put in PRU. One was a well rounded high achiever at primary school, until he found his dad hanging in his garage after school one day. He was excluded from 3 schools after that, including mine, which was the 3rd.

[Lord Rex 10]

Good decision to bring back Grammar Schools.

[Olive 10]

 

 

 

It's a question that occurred to me too. There are two aspects to the answer to that I can think of. One is that of school size. Children supposedly thrive in schools of 600-900 pupils. I suppose that equates to 4-5 classes per year group. The question is whether you can get sufficient separation within that year group to allow all abilities to be properly catered for. Two is that of the kind of education they receive. Under the current system, there isn't rationale for separation, but a different form of 'technical education' seems to be a significant driver behind separation. I also worry about the anti-intellectual bullying that is rife in many schools, but that is a broader issue than grammar/comprehensive. We have a backward and classist view of education throughout our country which in my view stems from idealogues on both sides of the debate, as well as our adversarial 'winner takes all' parliamentary system. Anti-intellectualism and being 'fed up of experts' is a great danger to our prosperity.

 

Good points Pete. I can imagine that kids do do better in smaller schools, in which case they're still barking up the wrong tree with this obsession with grammar schools. I should think that smaller class sizes are also beneficial.

 

All this dogma when really what people need is a good, consistent standard of education provided at a local school that's an appropriate size, with enough teachers and places to serve the local population.

 

Instead, we're faffing about with technical schools, schools for academically gifted children, schools for different religious denominations. Parents don't know if their kids will get into the local school or to the same one as their siblings. Parents are bussing their kids allmover the place either because they didn't get a place locally, or because the parents CHOSE to send them elsewhere. What a mess.

 

What you do about the issue of anti-intellectualism, I don't know. I'd be very interested in knowing what effect it really has. I know we all imagine it discourages clever kids to do their best, but I wonder if it does, and under what circumstances. It might be that a child's immediate class and peers have more influence than the wider school group?

 

The school I went to, in the 80s was a small, rural comprehensive. 600 pupils from a large geography, wide socioeconomic backgrounds and with all academic abilities. We were streamed. The higher academic achievers got on with it, there was opportunity to switch between sets as kids deveoped, the lower academic achivers got on with their stuff as well. We had people go on to Oxbridge and we had kids doing lessons in farming! No one stressed about what school they were going to go to, there wasn't a choice! It was up the the local authority to ensure everyone got a place.

[harvey19 541]

Peer pressure can influence a young person.

This is a 2 edged sword, not only can well behaved children influence disruptive ones, the disruptive ones can influence the well behaved ones and spoil their chances of achieving their potential.

[LeMaquis 10]

Good decision to bring back Grammar Schools.

 

Good decision to take the Tories' majority off them meaning that May's wish to introduce more grammar schools has failed its 11 plus.

[cgksheff 44]

For many years without grammar schools, Sheffield has consistently failed school students.

 

Bad schools and bad local education controllers still need to be got rid of.

 

The simple fact that an over-promoted PE Teacher can run a school with a budget of over a couple of million is a disgrace.

[phil752 10]

For many years without grammar schools, Sheffield has consistently failed school students.

 

Bad schools and bad local education controllers still need to be got rid of.

 

The simple fact that an over-promoted PE Teacher can run a school with a budget of over a couple of million is a disgrace.

 

That a case for looking at all schools not bring back grammar schools.

[cgksheff 44]

That a case for looking at all schools not bring back grammar schools.

 

Correct.

 

Whether Grammar Schools are worthwhile or not, more important is to try and get back to a standard where our schools were the envy of the world.

 

What is wrong with education?

The same as is wrong with the NHS, DWP, Utilities, Transport etc.

 

Personal gain (salaries, bonuses etc.) have become more important than the outcome.

 

In schools, there are a cadre of those that see their target as that of becoming a "senior leader" along with the inflated salary (and not having to teach those unruly kids)

 

If you are a wonderful teacher that just wants to teach (and get results) you are walked all over.