truman   10 #145 Posted November 16, 2016 And the health issues associated with street drugs being cut with who knows what. And the huge wasted cost of trying to police it. And the criminalisation of people for no good reason. And the lack of tax income to the government from sales.  Having pubs doesn't result in an alcohol free utopia (sounds like hell actually), but it means that alcohol isn't cut with meths, can be used in an appropriate setting, it's use is legally controlled, we pay tax when buying it and the police aren't kicking in your door to seize your home brew or wasting time chasing alcohol smugglers or producers. Apart from Penistone999 would anyone even bother to buy dodgy smuggled alcohol?.  But it does happen http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31148413  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8636424/Boston-explosion-five-dead-in-huge-fireball-during-illegal-vodka-brewing-operation.html  http://www.bostonstandard.co.uk/news/crime/customs_officers_raid_boston_stores_in_illegal_alcohol_and_tobacco_sting_1_2503343 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
sgtkate   10 #146 Posted November 16, 2016 Unfortunately that report is compiled from a year long survey. Crime Recording rules changed a few months ago and will have a very different view in next years study.  This survey simply asks people if they've been victim of crime or know of a close relative or neighbour that has doesn't it? Or are you saying the method the police use to assess crime has changed? Either way both totally independent methods of collating crime info show a downward trend for many years.  Serious question, how would you accurate track crime stats? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
stifflersmom   11 #147 Posted November 16, 2016 Theorising is one thing but the relevant question is whether you would want your child to be a drug addict. I am not talking about those taken for medical reasons. No one wants their child to be a drug addict, whatever that drug might be, so the relevant question is actually ...if your child were to become a drug addict, would you rather the drugs were available in a legal, controlled and regulated manner, or would you rather they were illicitly controlled by criminal gangs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
harvey19 Â Â 541 #148 Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) ---------- Post added 16-11-2016 at 17:41 ---------- Â [/color] No one wants their child to be a drug addict, whatever that drug might be, so the relevant question is actually ...if your child were to become a drug addict, would you rather the drugs were available in a legal, controlled and regulated manner, or would you rather they were illicitly controlled by criminal gangs. Â I would not want my child to be addicted to any unnecessary drugs. I believe the law encourages a young person not to take illegal drugs. Not all young people break the law to take illegal substances . Edited November 16, 2016 by harvey19 The question I was answering has been removed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Cyclone   10 #149 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) But it does happen http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31148413  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8636424/Boston-explosion-five-dead-in-huge-fireball-during-illegal-vodka-brewing-operation.html  http://www.bostonstandard.co.uk/news/crime/customs_officers_raid_boston_stores_in_illegal_alcohol_and_tobacco_sting_1_2503343  I bet you had to hunt for those!  How much more do you think it would happen if alcohol were criminalised?  ---------- Post added 17-11-2016 at 08:56 ----------   "if your child were to become a drug addict, would you rather the drugs were available in a legal, controlled and regulated manner, or would you rather they were illicitly controlled by criminal gangs."  You failed to actually answer the question. But perhaps after you've gone back and answered it, ---------- Post added 16-11-2016 at 17:41 ---------- [/color]  I would not want my child to be addicted to any unnecessary drugs. you can explain what unnecessary is? Is alcohol necessary, is nicotine or caffeine? I believe the law encourages a young person not to take illegal drugs. This is a clearly circular argument. If they weren't illegal then they wouldn't be illegal, duh. You realise that legality is a manmade arbitrary thing, it's not an inherent property of a drug. Not all young people break the law to take illegal substances .  Nobody claimed they did, so what? Edited November 17, 2016 by Cyclone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
harvey19   541 #150 Posted November 17, 2016 I bet you had to hunt for those! How much more do you think it would happen if alcohol were criminalised?  ---------- Post added 17-11-2016 at 08:56 ----------   "if your child were to become a drug addict, would you rather the drugs were available in a legal, controlled and regulated manner, or would you rather they were illicitly controlled by criminal gangs."  You failed to actually answer the question. But perhaps after you've gone back and answered it,  you can explain what unnecessary is? Is alcohol necessary, is nicotine or caffeine?  This is a clearly circular argument. If they weren't illegal then they wouldn't be illegal, duh. You realise that legality is a manmade arbitrary thing, it's not an inherent property of a drug.  Nobody claimed they did, so what?  May I put my original question to you? Would you want your child to become a drug addict unless these drugs were taken for medical reasons ? Would you condone your child taking what are now illegal substances if the law were to be changed ? Reality and theory. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Cyclone   10 #151 Posted November 17, 2016 Nobody wants their child to become a drug addict. I expect that most adults use drugs though (not illegal ones, I'm deliberately saying 'drugs' to include the various legal ones). I'd prefer anyone taking drugs to be able to take legal, licensed ones outside of the control of criminal gangs. That applies to alcohol and it applies to cannabis and any other drug.  So, since the evidence that legalisation and decriminalisation reduces harm and in some cases reduces usage (Portugal, heroin for example), in the interests of my theoretical children, and everybody else we should change the law immediately.  Oh, and the emotional reference to children is a cheap trick.  Can you now answer the various questions put to you?  "if your child were to become a drug addict, would you rather the drugs were available in a legal, controlled and regulated manner, or would you rather they were illicitly controlled by criminal gangs."  Can you explain what unnecessary is? Is alcohol necessary, is nicotine or caffeine?  Nobody claimed they did, so what? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
harvey19 Â Â 541 #152 Posted November 17, 2016 Nobody wants their child to become a drug addict. I expect that most adults use drugs though (not illegal ones, I'm deliberately saying 'drugs' to include the various legal ones). I'd prefer anyone taking drugs to be able to take legal, licensed ones outside of the control of criminal gangs. That applies to alcohol and it applies to cannabis and any other drug. Â So, since the evidence that legalisation and decriminalisation reduces harm and in some cases reduces usage (Portugal, heroin for example), in the interests of my theoretical children, and everybody else we should change the law immediately. Â Oh, and the emotional reference to children is a cheap trick. Â Can you now answer the various questions put to you? Â "if your child were to become a drug addict, would you rather the drugs were available in a legal, controlled and regulated manner, or would you rather they were illicitly controlled by criminal gangs." Â Can you explain what unnecessary is? Is alcohol necessary, is nicotine or caffeine? Â Nobody claimed they did, so what? Â The reference to ones child is not a cheap emotional trick but an opportunity to see the reality of your argument for legalising use of prohibited substances. Unnecessary related to whether a drug was needed for a medical condition or not. The reference to the supply of drugs is irrelevant as I would not want my child to become an addict in the first place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
sgtkate   10 #153 Posted November 17, 2016 The reference to ones child is not a cheap emotional trick but an opportunity to see the reality of your argument for legalising use of prohibited substances. Unnecessary related to whether a drug was needed for a medical condition or not. The reference to the supply of drugs is irrelevant as I would not want my child to become an addict in the first place.  But if they did become an addict would you rather it was an alcohol addicted or a cocaine one? And why? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
harvey19 Â Â 541 #154 Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) Alcohol is legal for over 18 year olds. Cocaine is illegal for all regardless of age. The alcohol vs Cocain argument is a smoke screen. Edited November 17, 2016 by harvey19 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
sgtkate   10 #155 Posted November 17, 2016 Alcohol is legal for over 18 year olds. Cocaine is illegal for all regardless of age. The alcohol vs Cocain argument is a smoke screen.  A smokescreen for what? Your argument is that you don't want your child to become an addict so I'm trying to work out why you think allowing alcohol to be legal and cocaine to not be somehow affects the likelihood of your child becoming an addict.  I suspect you either can't answer the question, or have realised that if do answer then it will show to you to be failing in logic or a complete hypocrite. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
harvey19 Â Â 541 #156 Posted November 17, 2016 Alcohol is legal. Yes some people do become alcoholics. Do you really want to make other substances legally available which can cause addiction ? Why are other substances other than alcohol necessary ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...