EU Voting Purely About Migrants?

[MobileB 10]

I interviewed a lot of people for junior IT roles in the last five years; I mean really junior roles, for people with little experience, no Uni education, but the right attitude to learn and build upon existing knowledge. Roles that are the bottom of the rung in the business.

 

At least 75% of applicants are from outside of the EU, having completed a degree in their native country then an MSc in the UK, looking for work to get a working visa to remain in the country. They've got years of experience in IT and a Masters, yet will take any role going in order to stay in the UK. I won't employ them as they are over qualified, but other people will, and get an experienced skilled worker and pay them peanuts and shut out people the role was designed for in the process. So don't think that getting a working visa is hard; it isn't in IT at least.

 

Just out of interest, what Tier of visa were they holding for you to be able to employ them?

[the_bloke 17]

Just out of interest, what Tier of visa were they holding for you to be able to employ them?

 

I believe as soon as they got the job offer, they'd be eligible for Tier 2 General. I guess up to the point of an offer, they were on Student visas as they'd all recently finished Masters in the UK.

[tzijlstra 11]

I get fed up with this.

Foreign born workers in the NHS and the free movement of people are completely unrelated matters.

 

People, quite rightly, point out the usefulness of immigrants to the NHS when faced with immigrant hatred.

People, quite wrongly, assume immigrant hatred at the suggestion that net migration of a third of a million per year is unsustainable.

I expect some of the people worried about immigration are xenophobic. I haven't met any myself, but they must be out there. Still not what this is about.

 

The NHS imports medical staff from all over the world. Changing our relationship with the EEA will not affect this. In fact throughout most of the last 20 years we got far more medical staff from outside the EEA from within in.

 

The 2 matters are completely unrelated.

 

The two bolded parts - they clash. People vote in this referendum BECAUSE they want to stop migration, that is why the Leave campaign has made it a central approach to attacking the EU. The problem is, leaving the EU is not going to slow migration down, there are jobs here.

 

I agree though, I get fed up with the discussion as well. The facts are pretty simple - the only way migration to the UK is really going to slow down is if the economy crashes. Which isn't good for anybody.

 

 

@Ash - I have not been clear enough in my post. So I will quote myself and elaborate on it. My issue is with this sentence from the post I quoted,

 

and it drives wages down for the country with high wages/employment (us for example!)

 

That is an assumption that simply doesn't work. The lowest wages in the UK have been going up, which is what I tried to point out here:

 

So let me ask you this - the Financial Crisis of 2007/2008 did not suppress wages here? Nor does it make any impression on you that the net minimum wage (ie. the tax-pressure on the lowest incomes) has dropped significantly?

 

What I, rather clumsily, tried to say was that minimum and low wages have gone up despite the economic crash. Tax-pressure has come down (tax-free base) and across the board wages in the UK have gone up.

 

It is a very often heard, and completely untrue statement that migration to the UK has suppressed wages. It hasn't, wages have been climbing above the rate of inflation. One could in fact argue the complete opposite - due to the immigration of highly skilled and knowledgeable workers the UK economy is becoming stronger compared to its competitors and therefore is able to pay more wages.

 

So I asked this question, again, placed out of context, but now hopefully in context:

 

Can I ask, genuinely, how being out of the EU would have changed that, considering that there is a near historic unemployment rate of around 5/6 percent?

 

Your point about unbalanced wages across the Union is irrelevant - the reason is simple. The nations where average wages are lower, are also considerably cheaper to live in. A year ago I spent time in Riga, the capital of Latvia with my wife, we brought around 500 euros in cash for 4 days. We ate in restaurants every day, we visited the local musea, we drank coffees, used taxis to get around etc. We managed to spend 280 euros, the biggest expense was at a wonderful restaurant where we ate like royalty for 45 euros, that included a bottle of wine and several other drinks. That is around 175£ (out of the top of my head) which would last us one day in London if we were careful with our money. Living in the UK is a lot more expensive.

 

Sounds to me like you are basing your position on a dislike of Eastern Europeans, with no foundation.

 

I said that because, frankly, you don't have a foundation for your claim. I did not say you were racist, I hinted at the fact that your viewpoint came across as xenophobic.

 

To then claim the old 'racist' card is rather typical of the anti-migration folk, wouldn't you agree?

[Michaeldyn 10]

I interviewed a lot of people for junior IT roles in the last five years; I mean really junior roles, for people with little experience, no Uni education, but the right attitude to learn and build upon existing knowledge. Roles that are the bottom of the rung in the business.

 

At least 75% of applicants are from outside of the EU, having completed a degree in their native country then an MSc in the UK, looking for work to get a working visa to remain in the country. They've got years of experience in IT and a Masters, yet will take any role going in order to stay in the UK. I won't employ them as they are over qualified, but other people will, and get an experienced skilled worker and pay them peanuts and shut out people the role was designed for in the process. So don't think that getting a working visa is hard; it isn't in IT at least.

You can't pay them peanuts. It's minimum I belive to be £26000 to qualifly

[MobileB 10]

I believe as soon as they got the job offer, they'd be eligible for Tier 2 General. I guess up to the point of an offer, they were on Student visas as they'd all recently finished Masters in the UK.

 

So if one student, then they have limited period after the end of their studies to find a position and they can work full time for that period (during term time it is a maximum of 20 hours per week).

 

For a Tier 2 General you would be needed to sponsor them. This would mean confirming with the Home Office that job is a required skill for which there is no EU citizen available for the post and you would have to pay a considerable amount (and they would also!) to obtain the Visa. And there is a maximum length of stay. It is not an easy or cheap process.

 

Also the wage offered must be above £20,800 per annum.

 

I would suggest jobs like this are not the bottom of the bottom.

[Michaeldyn 10]

So if one student, then they have limited period after the end of their studies to find a position and they can work full time for that period (during term time it is a maximum of 20 hours per week).

 

For a Tier 2 General you would be needed to sponsor them. This would mean confirming with the Home Office that job is a required skill for which there is no EU citizen available for the post and you would have to pay a considerable amount (and they would also!) to obtain the Visa. And there is a maximum length of stay. It is not an easy or cheap process.

 

Also the wage offered must be above £20,800 per annum.

 

I would suggest jobs like this are not the bottom of the bottom.

yes i though as much 'the_bloke' was dreaming he was a personal manager when he is flipping burgers at MC

[the_bloke 17]

For a Tier 2 General you would be needed to sponsor them. This would mean confirming with the Home Office that job is a required skill for which there is no EU citizen available for the post and you would have to pay a considerable amount (and they would also!) to obtain the Visa. And there is a maximum length of stay. It is not an easy or cheap process.

 

Also the wage offered must be above £20,800 per annum.

 

I would suggest jobs like this are not the bottom of the bottom.

 

It's £536 to apply for a licence to sponsor people, and it lasts for four years - it's hardly expensive, and it's something we already have as a business. As for the costs involved from the potential employee's POV, that's not our problem, it's the costs he has to pay himself to work in the UK. Not sure why you see it as a big issue?

 

When it comes to proving if he is the only person suitable for the job, all you need to do is prove that a) it's been advertised for 28 days and b) that of those candidates that applied, he was the most suitable candidate. That's it. Seeing as all our candidates come via agencies, they do all that for us.

 

Plus, that wage is the bottom rate for a junior position, which is what they all apply for.

 

yes i though as much 'the_bloke' was dreaming he was a personal manager when he is flipping burgers at MC

 

If I was flipping burgers I'd still be your superior, sunshine

[unbeliever 10]

The two bolded parts - they clash. People vote in this referendum BECAUSE they want to stop migration, that is why the Leave campaign has made it a central approach to attacking the EU. The problem is, leaving the EU is not going to slow migration down, there are jobs here.

 

Not me, and it's not up to me to tell other people how to decide.

[tzijlstra 11]

Not me, and it's not up to me to tell other people how to decide.

 

I know it doesn't apply to you, but it does need pointing out because there are plenty of people making their decision based on immigration and they are simply wrong.

[Penistone999 10]

I know it doesn't apply to you, but it does need pointing out because there are plenty of people making their decision based on immigration and they are simply wrong.

 

Why is that ?

 

---------- Post added 18-06-2016 at 19:43 ----------

 

So let me ask you this - the Financial Crisis of 2007/2008 did not suppress wages here? Nor does it make any impression on you that the net minimum wage (ie. the tax-pressure on the lowest incomes) has dropped significantly?

 

Can I ask, genuinely, how being out of the EU would have changed that, considering that there is a near historic unemployment rate of around 5/6 percent?

 

Sounds to me like you are basing your position on a dislike of Eastern Europeans, with no foundation.

 

Why is it wrong to want to stop uncontrolled immigrtaion form the EU ?

 

Nothing Racist about that

[unbeliever 10]

I know it doesn't apply to you, but it does need pointing out because there are plenty of people making their decision based on immigration and they are simply wrong.

 

If we left the EU, which I'm increasingly convinced we won't, being all chicken and such, the Uk demos would have the option of selecting a government which would act as they wish on immigration.

I hope they don't as a crude numbers target on immigration would be daft, but vox populi and all that.

[Shef1985 10]

Why is that ?

 

---------- Post added 18-06-2016 at 19:43 ----------

 

 

Why is it wrong to want to stop uncontrolled immigrtaion form the EU ?

 

Nothing Racist about that

 

No, but that's all you ever say. He who protests too much and all that...