What do people think of the Lecturers' industrial action?

[Twiglet 10]

This post appears counter productive to your point as you point out --

Lecturing salaries start at £24,000. That is more than the UK average

 

Start at £24,000. What is the real salary for the average strike fevered lecturer?

 

It isn't counter productive at all as everyone keps pointing out, but you are choosing to ignore, this is not an average job. People starting on £24k are in their late 20s/early 30s, have spent the last 7-8 years earning NOTHING (apart from in small part time jobs at weekends if they can manage it) and paying over £3,000 fees a year, getting into around £40-£50,000 worth of debt. They can't afford to get married or to get a mortgage until in their late 30s.

 

You should read one of the union websites. The money for the salary increase is coming from the increase in tuition fees in September. The authorities promised that 1/3 of the new fees would be used to improve pay, but have now changed their minds.

 

I'm starting to sound like a broken record, I wish people would read through threads.

[LordChaverly 10]

Average earnings for all full-time UK employees as at April 2005 was £28,258.

 

Source: ONS data as reported by Incomes Data Services.

 

[The web site you quoted had data from 1999.]

 

But this figure is misleading, because it merely divides total income by the number of employees. It is therefore heavily skewed, because it incorporates the salaries of London city fat cats and others earning huge amounts of wonga. A more useful figure would be the median, which would be significantly lower (probably in the lower 20k range rather than the higher 20k range). Aren't statistics wonderful?

[Peter88 10]

I'm not sure that suing the university will work. this is the response we got in relation to our fees.

 

Q: Will I be given a reduction of fees or can I claim some or all of my fees back because of this dispute?

 

A: No.The legal position on the contract between the University and its students is clear. Under the terms and conditions which you accepted when you joined the University, the University is not liable for the effect of actions beyond our reasonable control, including industrial action. Section 11.2 of the terms and conditions (under Liability) states that: Neither party shall be liable to the other for any failure or delay in performing its obligations under this contract if such failure or delay is due to any cause beyond that party's reasonable control. This will include (but will not be limited to) governmental actions, war, riots, civil commotion, fire, flood, epidemic, labour disputes (including labour disputes involving the workforce or any third party) and acts of God.

 

Funny, I don't remember seeing the T&Cs when I first enrolled.

 

As with most things legal your loophole is there! "Due to any cause beyond that party's reasonable control"

the argument would be whether or not this dispute is beyond their reasonable control. I have no opinion as to whether it is or is not. But that is certainly the gate a good lawyer would be driving through.

[Lib1 10]

http://www.aut.org.uk/index.cfm?articleid=1669 The Aut and the UCEA are meeting again today- fingers crossed that everything will be sorted out soon (for the benefit of both the lecturers and the students)

 

One additional point- if AUT accept the UCEA's new pay offer- pay for ALL Uni staff members will be increased from the cleaners to the senior lecturers. Uni staff unions for non-lecturers (e.g. UNISON) haven't actually been striking, but they have been playing a role in the pay negotiations and stand to benefit from the UCEA's pay offer: http://www.ucea.ac.uk/Documents/3_news/NR080506.pdf (See the second page)

[crookesey 631]

Rather generous salaries? Really? £35K (ish) for often working 10 hours plus a day + weekend work, isn't much when the same academic could earn half that again in industry.

 

The salaries of lecturers should be at least comparable to what they could earn in industry or you end up losing the best people.

 

b

 

First of all we hardly have any industry left, perhaps you hadn't noticed? If we had what comparable jobs would there be, particulally with the same holiday rights?

 

Do you think that the Private Sector doesn't work unpaid overtime? You are out of touch with reality as is common amongst Public Sector employees.

[LordChaverly 10]

I think that in ordinary usage 'average' usually means 'mean' - even for a highly positively skewed distribution such as the one that applies to wages in our increasingly unequal society.

 

But yes, the median would be much lower, because of those inequalities - e.g. in the web site I linked to they point out that for men the average is over £6,000 more than the median. [Note their usage - 'average' is contrasted with 'median'.] Presumably the median in 1999 would have been much lower than the £20,800 average quoted by Whatif wewin.

 

The median for all full time employees in April 2005 was £22412. This more or less tallies with the figure you mentioned for the average - i.e. a difference of around £6000.

[joeyannie 10]

First of all we hardly have any industry left, perhaps you hadn't noticed? If we had what comparable jobs would there be, particulally with the same holiday rights?

 

Do you think that the Private Sector doesn't work unpaid overtime? You are out of touch with reality as is common amongst Public Sector employees.

 

 

scientific researchers with the same qualifications as me but years less experience are currently earning at least £8000 more than I do working in the pharmaceutical industry (glaxo, wellcome etc) and their holiday rights are the same or better (mine is 25 days per year...once again the academic staff dont stop work when the students go home for their holidays).

As for unpaid overtime...my sister is an MLSO and earns more than I do, with more holiday and better benefits and if she is asked to be on call for a weekend she is paid £50 regardless of whether she is actually called in or not...if she then has to work overtime hours she is given time off in lieu.

I would say thats a pretty fair deal for her pay.

However, if I am doing an experiment that involves running a 15 hour time course I am expected to stay at work for those 15 hours and get no overtime or time off in lieu (as well as no thanks or recognition).

bring on the pharmaceutical jobs!

[Cuey 10]

This hurts me alot but i have to agree with Crooksey

 

All i'm hearing is "we could be paid more, in outside industry." Could you? If thats the case why aren't you there. I suspect one of the previous posts gave the answer without realsing it. He stated his skill set wasn't required in outside industry and he'd have to step back 7 years down the ladder. This seem like an admition that much of what lecturers think they should be paid for is not required by indusrty. If that is the case then the skill set they have is not comparable on pay grounds. If the money is bad, the leave can't be taken and the work is under paid. !! Why are you there

 

You know what they say "Those that can do, those that can't teach" this is maybe a little harsh but if you don't like the more that generous package then take one the high paid industry jobs you seem to think exist.

[nightrider 13]

This hurts me alot but i have to agree with Crooksey

 

All i'm hearing is "we could be paid more, in outside industry." Could you? If thats the case why aren't you there. I suspect one of the previous posts gave the answer without realsing it. He stated his skill set wasn't required in outside industry and he'd have to step back 7 years down the ladder. This seem like an admition that much of what lecturers think they should be paid for is not required by indusrty. If that is the case then the skill set they have is not comparable on pay grounds. If the money is bad, the leave can't be taken and the work is under paid. !! Why are you there

 

You know what they say "Those that can do, those that can't teach" this is maybe a little harsh but if you don't like the more that generous package then take one the high paid industry jobs you seem to think exist.

 

did you read the last post?:

 

"scientific researchers with the same qualifications as me but years less experience are currently earning at least £8000 more than I do working in the pharmaceutical industry (glaxo, wellcome etc) and their holiday rights are the same or better (mine is 25 days per year...once again the academic staff dont stop work when the students go home for their holidays)."

 

I would guess this is true of most science/engineering departments. Its certainly true in physics. Most physics phds go into industry, not academia - because the pay and conditions are so bad in universities. Unless you *really* love research you will not want to work in a university. I only do despite the bad pay and conditions. How long I will remain untempted by what my peers did I dont know.

[Twiglet 10]

This hurts me alot but i have to agree with Crooksey

 

All i'm hearing is "we could be paid more, in outside industry." Could you? If thats the case why aren't you there. I suspect one of the previous posts gave the answer without realsing it. He stated his skill set wasn't required in outside industry and he'd have to step back 7 years down the ladder. This seem like an admition that much of what lecturers think they should be paid for is not required by indusrty. If that is the case then the skill set they have is not comparable on pay grounds. If the money is bad, the leave can't be taken and the work is under paid. !! Why are you there

 

You know what they say "Those that can do, those that can't teach" this is maybe a little harsh but if you don't like the more that generous package then take one the high paid industry jobs you seem to think exist.

 

In my case, right now, I would earn more if I left my job and took an unrelated administrator position somewhere which required no degree at all. Why do I stay? Because I love my job and I would be bored silly sitting behind a desk pushing paper all day. I choose to enjoy my job and get lower pay. It is my choice, but that does not give universities the right to take advantage of it. In my situation, I'm not that bothered about the amount of money the Unions are asking for. I just want my pay raising to a level where I can live on it and am not getting further into debt, and where I am paid on an equal level as my male colleagues for doing the same job.

[joeyannie 10]

This hurts me alot but i have to agree with Crooksey

 

You know what they say "Those that can do, those that can't teach" this is maybe a little harsh but if you don't like the more that generous package then take one the high paid industry jobs you seem to think exist.

 

I dont teach I do research. One of the reasons I do this in an academic field is that I dont wholly agree with medical research being patented by big pharma companies making it a drugs lottery as to whether your health trust can pay for your treatments.

However, I am moving into industry because I feel undervalued in my academic career...and yes the high paid posts do exist. Try taking a look at the starting salary for a newly graduated PhD student at somewhere like glaxo...it is over £10,000 more than I started on and is, on an experience-equivalent scale, still about the same now.

As for "those who cant teach"...if they took your advice and took their research into industry then there would be no science based or engineering degrees for the students to take because there would be no lecturers.

So, whilst lecturers arent asking to match industry wages, they are asking for what was promised...and thats the point...IT WAS PROMISED. They havent just taken it upon themselves to turn around and say "this week I think I should have a 12% pay rise".

And finally...the "more than generous pay package"... I have only just managed to pay off my debts and buy a house and car at the age of 30 on this generous package...I havent had a holiday abroad for 7 years and have no savings to fall back on...so I would really appreciate a pay rise (hence the move to a new job) so that I can do more with my life than exist.

[Cuey 10]

so your health trust can pay for your treatments.

.

Seem an unlikely reason for universtiy research. Most is part funded by industry anyway. Any discovery made would still be made by a commercial company so you effect on price is negligable.

 

 

As for "those who cant ; teach"...if they took your advice and took their research into industry then there would be no science based or engineering degrees for the students to take because there would be no lecturers.

 

Or research into the effect of ABBA on music etc. Good research will always be done because there is a commercial insetive to do it. There will always be lecturers because there are those that can not handle the confines of a commercial environment.

 

And finally...the "more than generous pay package"... I have only just managed to pay off my debts and buy a house and car at the age of 30 on this generous package

 

Some would say that if you have managed to clear an estimated 50K debt, buy a house and a car then you are certainly being paid generously. This spending power would be the envy of alot of hard working poeple in Sheffield