Brexit-Impact on Eurozone.

[tinfoilhat 11]

Apologies it wasn't particularly directed at you.

 

My frustration is the number of economic models that have been touched on. I say touched on because no Brexit group has come out and said definitely what they have planned. All they do is say everything will be fine and well work it out later.

 

That just isn't good enough.

 

If they come out with detailed, costed plans (which is unlikely) so what? Cameron is under no obligation at all to do any of it.

[I1L2T3 10]

If they come out with detailed, costed plans (which is unlikely) so what? Cameron is under no obligation at all to do any of it.

 

There are no guarantees for sure but that doesn't excuse the almost complete lack of economic detail in the Brexit arguments

[ez8004 10]

There are no guarantees for sure but that doesn't excuse the almost complete lack of economic detail in the Brexit arguments

 

Spot on. All I have heard from the Leave campaign is that everyone who support the Remain campaign is apparently not entitled to an opinion and everything that has been said in support of remaining in the EU is wrong.

[gomgeg 10]

All the EU countries will still want to trade with us if we leave especially Germany with the amount of cars we import

Exactly, the UK buys twice as much from the EU than we sell them, this is why all the foreigners are scared stif of us leaving, and Cameron is enrolling them to come out with the scare stories. Obama's the next on the list, I don't suppose he'll be opening the US borders to thousands of Mexicans.

It's strange how a lot of left wingers who are complaining about housing shortages, waiting lists and low wages are all in favour of open borders allowing in millions from Eastern Europe and closer to home. Lord Blunkett, I'll say that again Lord Blunkett no it's no good I still can't believe it, said the other day he doesn't regret opening the borders in 2004 to millions of Europeans, he doesn't have to live with the consequences, he soon moved out to rural Derbyshire.

Then we've got the SNP who's main aim is independence, but they want the rest of us to be ruled from Europe.

[unbeliever 10]

There are no guarantees for sure but that doesn't excuse the almost complete lack of economic detail in the Brexit arguments

 

There's no consensus on the leave side as to what the arrangements should be post-Brexit. Nor is there any consensus on the remain side as to how much further we should integrate in we stay in.

The remain side agrees that we should continue to operate partly under the control of the EU, and the leave side agrees that the EU currently has too much control of the UK. There is some overlap clearly in these 2 perspectives of people who want less EU control, but think that this can be achieved without leaving; and those who are content with most of the current EU control but think it necessary to leave to avoid it advancing.

 

I don't think there's a strong case to be made that the remain side have a clearer vision of arrangements the UK should have with the EU than the leave side have.

Just on this thread, yourself and tzijlstra seem to have quite different idea of the ideal future arrangements that the UK should have with the EU.

 

That said, individuals on both sides clearly have their own vision.

 

Perhaps a question for the remain folk:

A new heavily federalising treaty for the EU is imminent, to further political union alongside the necessary furthering of financial union necessary to make the Euro function. What will this mean for the UK?

As it always has been, membership of the EU is a process rather than a status. Where will it lead for the UK?

Edited April 20, 2016 by unbeliever

[mossdog 10]

Apologies it wasn't particularly directed at you.

 

My frustration is the number of economic models that have been touched on. I say touched on because no Brexit group has come out and said definitely what they have planned. All they do is say everything will be fine and well work it out later.

 

That just isn't good enough.

...Economic models?....Financial forecasts?

 

TAXI !!!

[ez8004 10]

There's no consensus on the leave side as to what the arrangements should be post-Brexit. Nor is there any consensus on the remain side as to how much further we should integrate in we stay in.

The remain side agrees that we should continue to operate partly under the control of the EU, and the leave side agrees that the EU currently has too much control of the UK. There is some overlap clearly in these 2 perspectives of people who want less EU control, but think that this can be achieved without leaving; and those who are content with most of the current EU control but think it necessary to leave to avoid it advancing.

 

I don't think there's a strong case to be made that the remain side have a clearer vision of arrangements the UK should have with the EU than the leave side have.

Just on this thread, yourself and tzijlstra seem to have quite different idea of the ideal future arrangements that the UK should have with the EU.

 

That said, individuals on both sides clearly have their own vision.

 

Perhaps a question for the remain folk:

A new heavily federalising treaty for the EU is imminent, to further political union alongside the necessary furthering of financial union necessary to make the Euro function. What will this mean for the UK?

As it always has been, membership of the EU is a process rather than a status. Where will it lead for the UK?

 

No consensus? Which rock have you been under in the last 6 months? The PM has already negotiated a new set of reformed conditions for which the UK will have in the EU going forward. The Remain campaign are unified in promoting that.

 

---------- Post added 20-04-2016 at 20:02 ----------

 

Exactly, the UK buys twice as much from the EU than we sell them, this is why all the foreigners are scared stif of us leaving, and Cameron is enrolling them to come out with the scare stories. Obama's the next on the list, I don't suppose he'll be opening the US borders to thousands of Mexicans.

It's strange how a lot of left wingers who are complaining about housing shortages, waiting lists and low wages are all in favour of open borders allowing in millions from Eastern Europe and closer to home. Lord Blunkett, I'll say that again Lord Blunkett no it's no good I still can't believe it, said the other day he doesn't regret opening the borders in 2004 to millions of Europeans, he doesn't have to live with the consequences, he soon moved out to rural Derbyshire.

Then we've got the SNP who's main aim is independence, but they want the rest of us to be ruled from Europe.

 

Are you high? Are you really advocating that the UK in having a huge trade deficit is a good thing?

[unbeliever 10]

No consensus? Which rock have you been under in the last 6 months? The PM has already negotiated a new set of reformed conditions for which the UK will have in the EU going forward. The Remain campaign are unified in promoting that.

 

I'm aware of the deal. It's unratified, temporary and minimal. The Conservatives and some others may be campaigning on it, but the remain folk are far from united on the matter. Take the Lib Dems for example, they're all for further integration and always have been.

[gomgeg 10]

No consensus? Which rock have you been under in the last 6 months? The PM has already negotiated a new set of reformed conditions for which the UK will have in the EU going forward. The Remain campaign are unified in promoting that.

 

---------- Post added 20-04-2016 at 20:02 ----------

 

 

Are you high? Are you really advocating that the UK in having a huge trade deficit is a good thing?

No. Are you p....d? Where did I say that.

I guess you must be, you say what Cameron has negotiated. Nothing has been agreed yet and even if it had it it would mean little. And is this the same Cameron who was going to get immigration down to tens of thousands, no ifs and buts. Mind you what can you expect from a bloke who in a speech forgot he was an Aston Villa supporter and urged everyone to support West Ham.What a ********.

[tzijlstra 11]

There's no consensus on the leave side as to what the arrangements should be post-Brexit. Nor is there any consensus on the remain side as to how much further we should integrate in we stay in.

The remain side agrees that we should continue to operate partly under the control of the EU, and the leave side agrees that the EU currently has too much control of the UK. There is some overlap clearly in these 2 perspectives of people who want less EU control, but think that this can be achieved without leaving; and those who are content with most of the current EU control but think it necessary to leave to avoid it advancing.

 

I don't think there's a strong case to be made that the remain side have a clearer vision of arrangements the UK should have with the EU than the leave side have.

Just on this thread, yourself and tzijlstra seem to have quite different idea of the ideal future arrangements that the UK should have with the EU.

 

That said, individuals on both sides clearly have their own vision.

 

Perhaps a question for the remain folk:

A new heavily federalising treaty for the EU is imminent, to further political union alongside the necessary furthering of financial union necessary to make the Euro function. What will this mean for the UK?

As it always has been, membership of the EU is a process rather than a status. Where will it lead for the UK?

 

My vision for the UK is the answer to your question - simply put: the UK should be a full member of the EU, the Eurozone should further integration.

 

For those interested in more detail...

 

The Eurozone suffers from inflexibility because of a lack of appropriate integration due to being hampered by non Eurozone countries. I think a two-tier EU is preferable to all possible models. One where the UK, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and other non-Eurozone countries objecting to further integration are seen as full members of the parliament and have a defined degree of influence on treaties affecting them through a framework whereby the views of those national governments are taken into account before putting them to parliament/referendum. The Parliament will act similarly to the House of Lords and indeed to how it acts now - as a ratifying body.

 

I think the current EU Council and commission should be replaced by a fully elected body that is in charge of proposing policy where the winning coalition gets to fill the cabinet-posts and delivers the prime minister/president, so similar to the House of Commons.

 

The risk with that model, which is what the EU tried to avoid by setting up the rather odd Commission and Council system, is that countries with larger populations gain larger influence that way. The solution to that issue is that every national party in the Eurozone has to commit to one party in the EU and that each party has to state before the elections are called what their potential line-up of ministers would be and that line-up should represent all Eurozone member-states.

 

The key is that I also want to see a law in that context that states that every treaty-change (so for example accession of third nations) is by default subject to a referendum and that the public can force a referendum on any topic at a certain percentage of signatories per country based on a percentage, 5% for example, and that the EU provides an online platform where all new law is put up for a referendum call where people can decide whether they want a referendum on the topic or not, before it is ratified.

 

The referenda will be held online and can be accessed by using a unique identifier for each voter.

 

This is the simplified version of my vision for the EU and I think it likely that elements of this will find their way into practice as it is a view shared by a growing number of European politicians.

[Bruno 10]

Exactly, the UK buys twice as much from the EU than we sell them, this is why all the foreigners are scared stif of us leaving, and Cameron is enrolling them to come out with the scare stories. Obama's the next on the list, I don't suppose he'll be opening the US borders to thousands of Mexicans.

It's strange how a lot of left wingers who are complaining about housing shortages, waiting lists and low wages are all in favour of open borders allowing in millions from Eastern Europe and closer to home. Lord Blunkett, I'll say that again Lord Blunkett no it's no good I still can't believe it, said the other day he doesn't regret opening the borders in 2004 to millions of Europeans, he doesn't have to live with the consequences, he soon moved out to rural Derbyshire.

Then we've got the SNP who's main aim is independence, but they want the rest of us to be ruled from Europe.

 

Yeah funny that sno will push for a second referendum for independence if the result in EU is leave so they can give their independence back to the EU.

[ez8004 10]

No. Are you p....d? Where did I say that.

 

Let me remind you.

 

Exactly, the UK buys twice as much from the EU than we sell them,

 

I even made it in bold to make it easier for you. To make it even easier, a trade deficit is where you import more than you export, which is what you said in black and white.

 

Good job *slow clap*

Edited April 20, 2016 by ez8004