Government to spend Nine million on leaflets

[truman 10]

I will indulge you, despite you still refusing to answer my question or openness to be convinced, probably because I am so magnanimous.

 

.

 

Sorry to say but you're coming across as a bit arrogant ....

[L00b 441]

It's easy to let brickwalls get the better of one's head composure. Especially when the debate is emotionally-charged

Ok, why don't 'you' answer a direct question? If it's so blatantly obvious by any intelligent person that staying is the best option, why have the government bothered to give us a choice?

Because politics.

[PeteMorris 10]

The government is the Tories, the Tories have been split on this issue since day one. Dave promised it in the last election but the LibDems were not keen. So Dave made it a central tenant of his re-election campaign. That isn't because he is democratically astute, it is because he didn't really have an option after promising it previously (the party wanted it now) and because he didn't expect to win a majority anyway (in fact, one could argue he tried to lose the election, what, with his statement he wouldn't be electable for a third term weeks before the election).

 

So why were/are the Tories so split? Is there no possible argument for leaving, or are they all dimwits? Why does anyone possibly want to leave this wonderful 'Club' you seem to aspire to?

 

He won the majority anyway, to his shock, and couldn't do anything else but deliver the referendum which, I assure you, he has regretted the promise of since day one. Just like his promises about immigration, the NHS and countless other things.

 

So Cameron has screwed up and shot himself in the foot? We should never have been 'allowed' to have a referendum on the matter?

 

I don't mind though, a referendum is an excellent opportunity to debate the real issues at the foundation of the UK/EU relation and provides a chance for people to look at things in detail. What I do mind is people not wanting to look at the detail and instead going for their 'gut feeling'. Something which is exacerbated by the ridiculously low quality of campaigning we are subject to in the UK.

 

It's only low quality debating in 'your view'. Which in the grand scheme of things amounts to nothing, just like my point of view.

 

You assertion that everyone who votes to leave is feeble minded, or in your words 'dim' is completely outrageous. Why do you persist in this notion?

 

Ok, here's the things I don't like about the EU.

 

Immigration and being flooded with migrants from god knows where. If you've been keeping up with the news, they've already picked some up in the channel trying to get across. The government have no idea how many have actually made it in the back of lorries etc, and it's alleged they are using other less busy ports throughout the UK. Indeed the government even admit that they have no idea where some 'failed' migrants are. They simply disappear off the radar.

 

I don't want to be a part of Europe which includes Turkey. It's a recipe for disaster, but it seems they are making deals to allow free travel throughout Europe as a precondition to stopping (or trying to stop) migrants. So we'll be replacing Syrian migrant for Turkish migrants. No..Simply no, I don't want any part of that.

 

The 'deal' Cameron achieved was at best pathetic, and if reports from some quarters are to be believed not that enforceable. I suggest that should the vote go to stay in, it will be quietly buried, with no recourse. They're hardly likely to call another referendum anytime in my lifetime.

 

The emergency 'brake' system they came up with is damn silly, and will only come into effect, if the 'council' decrees that it's necessary, and that takes agreement. Which as we know, is at best chaotic in the EU and takes forever. So I don't hold any faith in that at all.

 

Then there's the steel issue. Which was discussed earlier. If the EU was a good thing, they would have taken measures to help the industry on an EU wide scale. Not some countries bending the rules to suit. The danger has been pointed out for years, yet the EU have done nothing. Indeed, they have exacerbated the problem, by working around the rules to suit their own needs. That's plain wrong. But nothing we can do, as we 'have' to blame our government for colluding in it all, for reasons which escape me. Once the steel industry is eradicated in this country, do you seriously think Chinese steel will be cheap as chips?

 

Then of course there's the cost to this country for being part of the 'club'..Which could be better used spent directly...Not with handouts in drip form from the EU. Cut out the middle man eh?

 

Then of course there's the gut instinct. I voted against it in 1975, I didn't want any part of it in 1973...I still don't want to be part of it, and now is the only opportunity we'll have to escape it.

 

There's too many countries, cultures, languages and differing agenda's to make anything 'workable' to suit everyone.

[L00b 441]

Immigration and being flooded with migrants from god knows where. If you've been keeping up with the news, they've already picked some up in the channel trying to get across. The government have no idea how many have actually made it in the back of lorries etc, and it's alleged they are using other less busy ports throughout the UK. Indeed the government even admit that they have no idea where some 'failed' migrants are. They simply disappear off the radar.

How is Brexiting going to stop this? Genuine question.

 

Reminder: we're not in Schengen, all UK borders (coastal, airports) are -and have long been- controlled.

 

The solution to that particular problem is giving HM Border Agency/customs and constabularies more resources, with a side helping of compulsory ID cards (...like your typical Brexiter would ever countenance that one! ).

 

That's all down to No.10/No.11, sod all to do with Brussels, now or later, after a Brexit vote or a non-Brexit vote.

I don't want to be a part of Europe which includes Turkey. It's a recipe for disaster, but it seems they are making deals to allow free travel throughout Europe as a precondition to stopping (or trying to stop) migrants. So we'll be replacing Syrian migrant for Turkish migrants. No..Simply no, I don't want any part of that.

The mooted visa waiver for Turkish nationals is Schengen zone-only. We're not in Schengen.

 

Even if the EU dealt with Erdogan to extend the mooted visa waiver for Turkish nationals beyond the Schengen zone-only, the UK has -and would in all likelihood invoke- its opt-out and stay clear of free-roaming Turks.

 

In that context, and by the way: the UK hasn't been taking, and isn't taking, any Syrian migrants from the EU. Care to guess how and why? The UK invoked its opt-out

 

So...Brexit or not, won't make any difference on that front.

 

But, and fair is fair, you have a point about the EU getting rolled by Erdogan on the back of the migrant crisis. Disgraceful. I wish Orban was dealing with Erdogan, rather than Mutti...sorry, Brussels

There's too many countries, cultures, languages and differing agenda's to make anything 'workable' to suit everyone.

And you have a fair point on this.

 

To my mind there should be no further integration on a cultural basis alone, and the opt-outs secured by Cameron this year on top of the existing opt-outs now (finally) allow for a genuine two-tiered EU (integrating € zone, non-integrating non-€ zone).

 

The UK will be joined by others in that club, mark my words.

 

Wouldn't be surprised to see Greece join us after they finally break the € shackles.

 

Wouldn't be surprised either, if that 'EU-light' club led by the UK eventually prompts the EEA/EFTA guys to actually join the EU (on a similar basis as the UK).

Edited April 19, 2016 by L00b

[tzijlstra 11]

Sorry to say but you're coming across as a bit arrogant ....

 

Coudln't care less Truman, rather arrogant than uninformed

[truman 10]

Coudln't care less Truman, rather arrogant than uninformed

 

What if it's both?

[tzijlstra 11]

Thanks Pete, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss things.

 

So why were/are the Tories so split? Is there no possible argument for leaving, or are they all dimwits? Why does anyone possibly want to leave this wonderful 'Club' you seem to aspire to?

 

You would have to ask the Tories, it has been an issue for them since day one of the EEA, never mind the EU.

 

So Cameron has screwed up and shot himself in the foot? We should never have been 'allowed' to have a referendum on the matter?

 

I think the UK should have a referendum on the matter, but only if fully informed, which is sadly not the case in my view. But yes, Cameron shot himself in the foot. It was obvious when he went to the EU with his 'renegotiation agenda', he knew he didn't have a leg to stand on because the EU bloody well knew he was negotiating from a position of weakness.

 

It's only low quality debating in 'your view'. Which in the grand scheme of things amounts to nothing, just like my point of view.

 

A good quality debate goes beyond one-liners, hence I am pleased you are going beyond them now.

 

You assertion that everyone who votes to leave is feeble minded, or in your words 'dim' is completely outrageous. Why do you persist in this notion?

 

I hate to say it, but it is you who persists in the notion that I said that. I never did. I merely pointed out that some Brexit voters (and no doubt pro-EU voters) are dim because they refuse to take in all the information that is available to them before making a decision. The following section you posted I appreciate, because it allows me a vehicle to demonstrate that you are not aware of all the facts. Not to demonstrate that you are dim, because I don't think you are.

 

Ok, here's the things I don't like about the EU.

 

Immigration and being flooded with migrants from god knows where. If you've been keeping up with the news, they've already picked some up in the channel trying to get across. The government have no idea how many have actually made it in the back of lorries etc, and it's alleged they are using other less busy ports throughout the UK. Indeed the government even admit that they have no idea where some 'failed' migrants are. They simply disappear off the radar.

 

That won't stop by leaving the EU, the UK already has it's own borders for illegal migration under full sovereign control as it isn't part of the EU Schengen treaty. Illegal immigrants, particularly from 'former crown colonies' want to come to the UK in particular for various reasons, most often because they speak the language. I have recently however heard a Nigerian lad say he wanted to get into the UK because he was a fan of Manchester United.

 

Being part of the EU helps the UK negotiate with France and other EU nations about potential solutions to the issue, leaving the EU will still allow that but put the UK in a weaker position - it won't be able to trade political influence in the EU council any more. So now, with the UK in, if the UK wants France to agree to something, it can promise not to demand alteration of the agricultural monies that are a thorn in the eye of many, it will lose that option. Very simple matter of fact.

 

I don't want to be a part of Europe which includes Turkey. It's a recipe for disaster, but it seems they are making deals to allow free travel throughout Europe as a precondition to stopping (or trying to stop) migrants. So we'll be replacing Syrian migrant for Turkish migrants. No..Simply no, I don't want any part of that.

 

Firstly - nor do I, I am vehemently against the accession of Turkey until they demonstrate they have solid human rights and a solid democracy in place. I am very frustrated that Merkel has launched herself into Erdogan's trap and has been played like a donkey, dragging the EU with her. Not to mention that Turkey is almost certain to play a dirty role in the Syria conflict anyway.

 

But, and this is a big but, the free travel clause IS NOT the same as free movement of people. It is merely a clause that removes visas for travel, not one that allows Turks to work wherever they like.

 

The 'deal' Cameron achieved was at best pathetic, and if reports from some quarters are to be believed not that enforceable. I suggest that should the vote go to stay in, it will be quietly buried, with no recourse. They're hardly likely to call another referendum anytime in my lifetime.

 

There is one aspect of Cameron's deal that should not be deemed pathetic and that is the clause that the UK will play no further part in the further integration of the EU. This means that the UK maintains a special status with the EU, picking and choosing which treaties to agree to and which not. Other than that, it is typical of poor EU politics by Cameron. Brown, love him or hate him, was ten times more effective than Cameron in Europe.

 

The emergency 'brake' system they came up with is damn silly, and will only come into effect, if the 'council' decrees that it's necessary, and that takes agreement. Which as we know, is at best chaotic in the EU and takes forever. So I don't hold any faith in that at all.

 

Agreed, but let's see what the genuine reason for this is, despite shouting off the roofs that the Tories want less migration, they are lying to the public, big business wants migration, it needs it.

 

Then there's the steel issue. Which was discussed earlier. If the EU was a good thing, they would have taken measures to help the industry on an EU wide scale. Not some countries bending the rules to suit. The danger has been pointed out for years, yet the EU have done nothing. Indeed, they have exacerbated the problem, by working around the rules to suit their own needs. That's plain wrong. But nothing we can do, as we 'have' to blame our government for colluding in it all, for reasons which escape me. Once the steel industry is eradicated in this country, do you seriously think Chinese steel will be cheap as chips?

 

This is a common misconception in Britain and is due to the way politicians hold the EU responsible when they implement law that is unpopular. The EU directives for competition are interpreted by each member-state and the UK chose to implement it the way they did. The UK has always been far more market liberal than other EU countries, so it is odd to me that a Brit would hold the EU responsible for market liberalisation, that was until I realised what the UK has done different than the other EU countries - it took things and made them more aggressive than intended. That isn't the EU's fault, that is the UK government's fault. I highlighted this by pointing out Javid is playing a double-faced game, in the EU he is arguing heart and soul against protection, here he says he will do what he can to protect steel jobs.

 

Then of course there's the cost to this country for being part of the 'club'..Which could be better used spent directly...Not with handouts in drip form from the EU. Cut out the middle man eh?

 

Then of course there's the gut instinct. I voted against it in 1975, I didn't want any part of it in 1973...I still don't want to be part of it, and now is the only opportunity we'll have to escape it.

 

I am not a fan of making decisions with gut instinct, I think I made that clear earlier. Regarding the 'cost' we can argue that until we weigh an ounce, but Brexit WILL have a cost to the UK economy, whether that is medium or long term, and even if the immediate cost to the tax-payer might not be immediately visible, the cost to business will be enormous, they will have no option but to renegotiate all their contracts abroad (not just the EU) and that might short term well cost the economy far more than the contribution to the EU.

 

There's too many countries, cultures, languages and differing agenda's to make anything 'workable' to suit everyone.

 

I love the fact it is diverse, you don't, simple enough and not a lot to argue there, although I think/know a hell of a lot is already workable to suit everyone.

[Jeffrey Shaw 90]

TI love the fact it is diverse, you don't, simple enough and not a lot to argue there, although I think/know a hell of a lot is already workable to suit everyone.

One can- and many are- simultaneously:

a. friendly towards Europe and Europeans; but

b. wishing the UK to leave the EU, regain full sovereignty from the EU, and trade/co-exist with the EU.

[samssong 10]

your fellow OAPs at the nursing home? That figures.

Some of em can still sort a key board worrier out even after working 60 odd years in the Steel works.

[PeteMorris 10]

Thanks Pete, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss things.

 

 

 

You would have to ask the Tories, it has been an issue for them since day one of the EEA, never mind the EU.

 

 

 

I think the UK should have a referendum on the matter, but only if fully informed, which is sadly not the case in my view. But yes, Cameron shot himself in the foot. It was obvious when he went to the EU with his 'renegotiation agenda', he knew he didn't have a leg to stand on because the EU bloody well knew he was negotiating from a position of weakness.

 

 

 

A good quality debate goes beyond one-liners, hence I am pleased you are going beyond them now.

 

 

 

I hate to say it, but it is you who persists in the notion that I said that. I never did. I merely pointed out that some Brexit voters (and no doubt pro-EU voters) are dim because they refuse to take in all the information that is available to them before making a decision. The following section you posted I appreciate, because it allows me a vehicle to demonstrate that you are not aware of all the facts. Not to demonstrate that you are dim, because I don't think you are.

 

 

 

That won't stop by leaving the EU, the UK already has it's own borders for illegal migration under full sovereign control as it isn't part of the EU Schengen treaty. Illegal immigrants, particularly from 'former crown colonies' want to come to the UK in particular for various reasons, most often because they speak the language. I have recently however heard a Nigerian lad say he wanted to get into the UK because he was a fan of Manchester United.

 

Being part of the EU helps the UK negotiate with France and other EU nations about potential solutions to the issue, leaving the EU will still allow that but put the UK in a weaker position - it won't be able to trade political influence in the EU council any more. So now, with the UK in, if the UK wants France to agree to something, it can promise not to demand alteration of the agricultural monies that are a thorn in the eye of many, it will lose that option. Very simple matter of fact.

 

 

 

Firstly - nor do I, I am vehemently against the accession of Turkey until they demonstrate they have solid human rights and a solid democracy in place. I am very frustrated that Merkel has launched herself into Erdogan's trap and has been played like a donkey, dragging the EU with her. Not to mention that Turkey is almost certain to play a dirty role in the Syria conflict anyway.

 

But, and this is a big but, the free travel clause IS NOT the same as free movement of people. It is merely a clause that removes visas for travel, not one that allows Turks to work wherever they like.

 

 

 

There is one aspect of Cameron's deal that should not be deemed pathetic and that is the clause that the UK will play no further part in the further integration of the EU. This means that the UK maintains a special status with the EU, picking and choosing which treaties to agree to and which not. Other than that, it is typical of poor EU politics by Cameron. Brown, love him or hate him, was ten times more effective than Cameron in Europe.

 

 

 

Agreed, but let's see what the genuine reason for this is, despite shouting off the roofs that the Tories want less migration, they are lying to the public, big business wants migration, it needs it.

 

 

 

This is a common misconception in Britain and is due to the way politicians hold the EU responsible when they implement law that is unpopular. The EU directives for competition are interpreted by each member-state and the UK chose to implement it the way they did. The UK has always been far more market liberal than other EU countries, so it is odd to me that a Brit would hold the EU responsible for market liberalisation, that was until I realised what the UK has done different than the other EU countries - it took things and made them more aggressive than intended. That isn't the EU's fault, that is the UK government's fault. I highlighted this by pointing out Javid is playing a double-faced game, in the EU he is arguing heart and soul against protection, here he says he will do what he can to protect steel jobs.

 

 

 

I am not a fan of making decisions with gut instinct, I think I made that clear earlier. Regarding the 'cost' we can argue that until we weigh an ounce, but Brexit WILL have a cost to the UK economy, whether that is medium or long term, and even if the immediate cost to the tax-payer might not be immediately visible, the cost to business will be enormous, they will have no option but to renegotiate all their contracts abroad (not just the EU) and that might short term well cost the economy far more than the contribution to the EU.

 

 

 

I love the fact it is diverse, you don't, simple enough and not a lot to argue there, although I think/know a hell of a lot is already workable to suit everyone.

 

I won't answer your point individually, as I said previously, nobody is actually going to read a post that long.

 

But rest assured, there are points to argue despite your assertion that there's not much to argue about.

 

It's somewhat amusing to see that you agree on a lot of my points, but staying in is still your preference?

 

You say you 'know' that a lot of those raising issues they find offensive are as you say 'workable' within the EU. I reiterate, they've had 43 years to make it workable, but haven't. Are you suggesting 'let's give it another 43 years and maybe they can get it right?'...It's nonsense...This will be the only opportunity to get out....But you are all for staying in and fighting...Yes 'fighting' being the operative word!....We're fed up of it....

[tzijlstra 11]

One can- and many are- simultaneously:

a. friendly towards Europe and Europeans; but

b. wishing the UK to leave the EU, regain full sovereignty from the EU, and trade/co-exist with the EU.

 

Yes, that is true and I am delighted that is the case. I don't want any harm for either the EU and the UK because I am rather fond of both, hence I wish for the UK to stay in the EU

[rodbender 10]

has anyone received there stay in eu leaflet in Sheffield yet they said that every house in the country would get one I live in s5 and no one around me has got one yet . if you have received yours will you reply leaving your post code ( s5 ect ect )