Muslim country moves to ban burqa and Islamic veils in public places

[Berberis 10]

Social conditioning and cultural indoctrination are not a choice. So perhaps miniskirts and high heels should be banned? And business suits and ties?

 

Mini skirts and high heels are not required by culture, no one is telling the wearer they must wear them, plus they do not impede social interaction or create a barrier between the wearer and the outside world.

 

Business suits and ties again are only worn when in the workplace and no employer can demand you wear a suit unless you are customer facing. Again, the suite and tie is not a physical barrier and you are free to take it off once you leave the workplace. If burkas were worn only in religious buildings, no one would have an issue.

 

---------- Post added 10-03-2016 at 12:03 ----------

 

We COULD have total freedom of how to dress, but I agree that we don't.

It's wrong that we have any laws dictating how to dress.

 

Yes we could. Would you agree with people being able to walk the streets naked? Hypothetically speaking?

[Cyclone 10]

Which argument do you want to use? Cultural conditioning or barrier to interaction. You can't have both.

 

There is a very real cultural pressure on everyone to dress in a certain way in certain situations, and high heels for example do very real damage to women's feet, far more damage than a burqa ever did anyone...

[sgtkate 10]

Mini skirts and high heels are not required by culture, no one is telling the wearer they must wear them, plus they do not impede social interaction or create a barrier between the wearer and the outside world.

 

Business suits and ties again are only worn when in the workplace and no employer can demand you wear a suit unless you are customer facing. Again, the suite and tie is not a physical barrier and you are free to take it off once you leave the workplace. If burkas were worn only in religious buildings, no one would have an issue.

 

But we are told we have to wear clothes and you could equally argue that we are being just as controlled by our social expectations and culture as those women in burkas. Imagine meeting up with your friend in a pub and he walks in naked. He'd likely get treated similar to some of those women if they tried to go to a mosque without the burka. So there are parallels here. The difference is that our 'modesty' laws apply almost equally to men and women. Almost is key here as I would be arrested if I walked around completely topless whereas a man would not. So in fact I am being controlled by men to the standards I am forced to comply with that a man does not. Hypocrisy abounds!

[Cyclone 10]

In the context posited by the Eric Arthur post you quoted, she only becomes a victim if her partner or husband forces her to still wear a burka in public despite a ban.

On the contrary. If she wishes to wear one and the state is now stopping her then she is a victim of the state controlling her freedom to dress.

The circular nature of the above notwithstanding, in this specific instance you absolutely can: you criminalise the prescriptor (the husband/partner) more than the wearer (the woman).

 

And criminalising the controlling person I'd totally agree with. Because they are doing something that impacts on someone else.

Criminalising the victim in addition to people who just wish to wear an item of clothing, I don't see how that helps at all.

[Berberis 10]

Which argument do you want to use? Cultural conditioning or barrier to interaction. You can't have both.

 

There is a very real cultural pressure on everyone to dress in a certain way in certain situations, and high heels for example do very real damage to women's feet, far more damage than a burqa ever did anyone...

 

Yes you can. The Burka is a cultural construct that creates a barrier to interaction.

 

Back to the high heels, the women still has the choice to remove the heels or to not wear them or to change them to smaller heels. A woman wearing a burka in the vast majority of cases does not have a choice.

[Cyclone 10]

But we are told we have to wear clothes and you could equally argue that we are being just as controlled by our social expectations and culture as those women in burkas. Imagine meeting up with your friend in a pub and he walks in naked. He'd likely get treated similar to some of those women if they tried to go to a mosque without the burka. So there are parallels here. The difference is that our 'modesty' laws apply almost equally to men and women. Almost is key here as I would be arrested if I walked around completely topless whereas a man would not. So in fact I am being controlled by men to the standards I am forced to comply with that a man does not. Hypocrisy abounds!

 

And equally if I wear my favourite miniskirt and heels into town tomorrow evening, I'll probably get beaten up, whilst you'll get admiring glances.

[Eric Arthur 10]

Social conditioning and cultural indoctrination are not a choice. So perhaps miniskirts and high heels should be banned? And business suits and ties?

 

If a woman can wear a mini skirt or a burka she has a choice.

If a woman can't wear a mini skirt or a burka she doesn't have a choice.

 

What was it that you were saying about banning mini skirts?

 

Then you need to decide for yourself if wearing a burka / veil is a genuine choice. I say that it isn't at the median point, whereas I say that wearing a mini skirt is.

[sgtkate 10]

And equally if I wear my favourite miniskirt and heels into town tomorrow evening, I'll probably get beaten up, whilst you'll get admiring glances.

 

Yes, but you wouldn't be breaking the law if you walked around topless, whereas I would. So we have different laws governing state of dress for men and women.

 

And thanks for saying I'd get admiring glances, at 7 months pregnant you need at the compliments you can get! My high heels and mini skirt days are on hold for the foreseeable...

[Cyclone 10]

Yes you can. The Burka is a cultural construct that creates a barrier to interaction.

It's an item of a clothing, it's no more a cultural construct than the suit and tie or any other item of clothing. (Which is to say that they are all cultural constructs really).

 

Back to the high heels, the women still has the choice to remove the heels or to not wear them or to change them to smaller heels. A woman wearing a burka in the vast majority of cases does not have a choice.

 

A woman wearing a burka has that choice. And should she choose to exercise it then the state will support her, the police will intervene if necessary to protect her from anyone trying to force her to wear it.

[Berberis 10]

But we are told we have to wear clothes and you could equally argue that we are being just as controlled by our social expectations and culture as those women in burkas. Imagine meeting up with your friend in a pub and he walks in naked. He'd likely get treated similar to some of those women if they tried to go to a mosque without the burka. So there are parallels here. The difference is that our 'modesty' laws apply almost equally to men and women. Almost is key here as I would be arrested if I walked around completely topless whereas a man would not. So in fact I am being controlled by men to the standards I am forced to comply with that a man does not. Hypocrisy abounds!

 

The friend in this example is breaking the law though. So I can't see how this helps the argument for allowing the burqa?

[Cyclone 10]

Yes, but you wouldn't be breaking the law if you walked around topless, whereas I would. So we have different laws governing state of dress for men and women.

 

True, and entirely unfair. I support your right to go out topless, although it's a bit cold for it today...

[L00b 441]

Which argument do you want to use? Cultural conditioning or barrier to interaction. You can't have both.

Why on earth not? Open face interaction is a fundamental aspect of most cultures across the world, bar Muslim fundamentalists, since the year dot.

There is a very real cultural pressure on everyone to dress in a certain way in certain situations, and high heels for example do very real damage to women's feet, far more damage than a burqa ever did anyone...

There's a few hundred, if not thousands by now, of Syrian women beaten, lashed or even executed by IS for not wearing a Burqa, knocking at the door to disagree with you.