More than 85% of public tip offs on benefit 'frauds' are false

[apelike 10]

If its not declared you won't be paying the right amount of tax, making it tax fraud.

 

No as not declaring income to the DWP does not mean you are not paying tax, all it means is you are not declaring that income. People may have

a job where they pay tax and yet fail to declare it to the DWP which is often the case. Some may also not be in the tax bracket so no tax would be payable anyway.

 

The inability to report a crime wouldn't change the fact that a crime was committed.

 

Ah but that's the inability to report a crime, which first means that you are aware of a crime being committed.

 

The murderer would know they murdered someone, the fact that no one else knows doesn't change the fact they committed the crime of murderer.

 

I agree but the problem is that if no one knows and a body is not found then its not classed as murder so its not a statistic.

 

Fraud is the wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain, its still fraud even when the fraudster gets away with it.

 

I agree but the problem is benefit fraud at 2% is just a tiny percentage of overall UK fraud. Although Tax fraud accounts for 69% its benefit fraud that people and the media concentrate on and moan about.

 

Have a read of the link I posted earlier and you will see that claimant and official error also led to £1.3 billion benefits being underpaid.

[RonJeremy 10]

People don't pay enough tax. If there was more tax revenue we could increase benefit pay outs and then there might be less fraud

 

Who doesn't? How much is enough?

[sutty27 10]

People don't pay enough tax. If there was more tax revenue we could increase benefit pay outs and then there might be less fraud

 

That would just increase tax fraud as more workers would find ways to keep what they earn instead of handing it over to government and then to people that don't work.

 

---------- Post added 29-02-2016 at 19:49 ----------

 

No as not declaring income to the DWP does not mean you are not paying tax, all it means is you are not declaring that income. People may have

a job where they pay tax and yet fail to declare it to the DWP which is often the case. Some may also not be in the tax bracket so no tax would be payable anyway.

You introduced DWP, I said nothing about them, undeclared income is income earned in the black economy that isn't declaim to HMRC.

 

Ah but that's the inability to report a crime, which first means that you are aware of a crime being committed.

You are aware that you are being attacked, at this point a crime is being committed, you die so you now have an inability to report the crime.

 

 

I agree but the problem is that if no one knows and a body is not found then its not classed as murder so its not a statistic.

It is murder if someone unlawfully kills some else even if a body is never found.

 

 

 

I agree but the problem is benefit fraud at 2% is just a tiny percentage of overall UK fraud. Although Tax fraud accounts for 69% its benefit fraud that people and the media concentrate on and moan about.

How do you know that benefit fraud is just 2% and tax fraud is 69%?

 

Have a read of the link I posted earlier and you will see that claimant and official error also led to £1.3 billion benefits being underpaid.

Its irrelevant, incompetence in the benefits office doesn't alter the fact that benefit fraud is a crime and should punished.

[cgksheff 44]

I, personally, don't think that it is a hanging offence, but anyone that signs (hard copy, digitally or verbally) a declaration to DWP or HMRC that is knowingly incorrect, is committing fraud.

Those declarations usually include a condition to inform of any significant change of circumstances

[Mister M 1,625]

Another windup from your own world.

The Jeremy Kyle show is still there to help find the fathers, who then being responsible people will no doubt be to willing to pay for the kids.

Another problem solved.

 

Sorry what's a wind up? Lots of people from pensioners, low waged families and others, as defined in need, are going without. The Telegraph reported in 2010 the £16billion went unclaimed - a year.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/7144127/16bn-worth-of-benefits-unclaimed-every-year.html

 

For sure, some of it will be down to not knowing what their entitlements are. But when I was on benefits many years ago I felt like the lowest of the low - even though objectively I knew what my entitlements were, I still felt the lowest of the low.

Why bring Jeremy Kyle into it?

 

So, people are still squabbling over the crumbs that fall off the table. If there were as much concern and TV programmes about corporate welfare scrounging we may possibly hit the real thieves.

 

I'm no psychologist, but I do think that people are conditioned to kick those on the lowest rung of the ladder; makes them feel better about themselves. The lives of the wealthy tax dodgers mean nothing to them as they assume they are different and have no affinity with them.

 

I know it's not politically correct to say it, but I'd rather a minority were allowed to get away with benefit fraud, if it meant others (known to be a much larger group) got what they're entitled to. I've heard from too many who go without dinners, or putting the heating on because they feel ashamed to claim what's theirs.

Some of that is to do with people who get so sanctimonious about benefit fraud....Anyone would think that those pointing the finger had never committed a crime. I know that at least one on here boasts about getting his 'under the counter tobacco', yet spits blood when someone gets more benefits than they're entitled to....

Edited February 29, 2016 by Mister M

[herbalharry 10]

That would just increase tax fraud as more workers would find ways to keep what they earn instead of handing it over to government and then to people that don't work.

 

---------- Post added 29-02-2016 at 19:49 ----------

 

You introduced DWP, I said nothing about them, undeclared income is income earned in the black economy that isn't declaim to HMRC.

 

You are aware that you are being attacked, at this point a crime is being committed, you die so you now have an inability to report the crime.

 

 

 

It is murder if someone unlawfully kills some else even if a body is never found.

 

 

 

 

How do you know that benefit fraud is just 2% and tax fraud is 69%?

 

 

Its irrelevant, incompetence in the benefits office doesn't alter the fact that benefit fraud is a crime and should punished.

 

There's more people working on low wages claiming benefits. Those that do not work only make up a fraction.

 

---------- Post added 29-02-2016 at 23:09 ----------

 

Who doesn't? How much is enough?

 

See above Ron. There's a lot of people claiming for something or other. We should pay more and bring the lowest out of tax too. Richer people should shoulder more of the tax burden.

 

---------- Post added 29-02-2016 at 23:10 ----------

 

That would help hard working families mire than increasing the NMW. Which is only going to cost jobs.

[apelike 10]

You introduced DWP, I said nothing about them, undeclared income is income earned in the black economy that isn't declaim to HMRC.

 

No, the thread is about benefits fraud which is handled by the DWP so HMRC has nothing to do with it.

 

How do you know that benefit fraud is just 2% and tax fraud is 69%?

 

Because there is published data to back those figures up.

 

Its irrelevant, incompetence in the benefits office doesn't alter the fact that benefit fraud is a crime and should punished.

 

I didn't say otherwise, only that in reality it makes up just a tiny percentage of overall fraud in the UK.

[sutty27 10]

No, the thread is about benefits fraud which is handled by the DWP so HMRC has nothing to do with it.

I didn't say benefits fraud was anything to do the HMRC, someone else brought tax fraud into it and that is handled by MHRC.

 

 

 

 

Because there is published data to back those figures up.

No there isn't.

 

I didn't say otherwise, only that in reality it makes up just a tiny percentage of overall fraud in the UK.

You are still getting confused between fraud that is detected and undetected fraud. The fact that benefits fraud only makes up a small percentage of detected fraud is probably down to the fact that it is very difficult to detect and prove.

[onewheeldave 22]

i wonder what percentage of the 85% was so difficult to prove due to varying reasons and sensitivities:suspect:

 

In turn, I wonder what that actually means?

 

---------- Post added 01-03-2016 at 11:16 ----------

 

 

 

 

I know it's not politically correct to say it, but I'd rather a minority were allowed to get away with benefit fraud, if it meant others (known to be a much larger group) got what they're entitled to. I've heard from too many who go without dinners, or putting the heating on because they feel ashamed to claim what's theirs.

I agree 100%. Though, apparently, we're both virtually benefit fraudsters ourselves, simply for holding such a view

 

But benefit fraud costs us all. We can't get insurance against it. I suspect it is only those who are commiting the fraud who think it shouldn't be clamped down on. I imagine there's quite a lot of them posting on here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm no psychologist, but I do think that people are conditioned to kick those on the lowest rung of the ladder; makes them feel better about themselves. The lives of the wealthy tax dodgers mean nothing to them as they assume they are different and have no affinity with them.

......

 

.....

Some of that is to do with people who get so sanctimonious about benefit fraud....Anyone would think that those pointing the finger had never committed a crime. I know that at least one on here boasts about getting his 'under the counter tobacco', yet spits blood when someone gets more benefits than they're entitled to....

Yes, unfortunately, a lot of those who put the boot in when it comes to benefits claimants, are clearly far from happy with their own lives, and only feel better when attacking others, and, believing in some bizarre media-fueled conspiracy theory that benefits claimants are mainly malingering fraudsters, living a life of luxury at the taxpayers expense.

 

If benefits is such a free and easy life, how come those moaning don't simply sign on and also enjoy the high-life? They'll say it's cos it's immoral, yet, every single one of them, if they won £5m on the lottery, would take it in a shot.

 

---------- Post added 01-03-2016 at 11:18 ----------

 

None of which is true.

Finally we get to the actual truth

 

[*]Insufficient or no evidence of fraud was discovered in 887,468 of these.

 

Which is pretty much what you'd expect if the accusations (of fraud) were false.

 

---------- Post added 01-03-2016 at 11:21 ----------

 

You are still getting confused between fraud that is detected and undetected fraud. The fact that benefits fraud only makes up a small percentage of detected fraud is probably down to the fact that it is very difficult to detect and prove.

 

Why not quit on it then. Put the immense amount of cash currently going towards benefit fraud investigation back into the system- after all, they're clearly not providing value-for-money (as it's so difficult to detect and prove).

[Cyclone 10]

It's also what you'd expect if they're difficult to prove...

[Eric Arthur 10]

Which is pretty much what you'd expect if the accusations (of fraud) were false.

It's pretty much the exact opposite of that. 85% is a made up statistic that required 4 journalistic somersaults to arrive at.

[onewheeldave 22]

It's also what you'd expect if they're difficult to prove...

 

Of course, if they were false, that would also account for the difficulty in proof.