Coal and gas versus renewables

[dangerousedd 10]

solar furnaces can store energy in molten salt afaik, doubt it would work in the uk but works in the usa.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

Wind farms are not a suitable source of energy for pumped storage schemes.

Derwent valley cannot be used as a pumped storage scheme.

 

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Energy can be transferred.

During transfer useful energy is lost usually in the form of heat- efficiency. This is minimised by high voltages and short distances.

 

The huge amount of energy that would need to be transferred has to be done at a high voltage which is something wind farms cannot do.

 

The largest and most efficient "pumped storage" scheme in Europe is the 75% efficient Dinorwig which had two nuclear power stations filling the top lake-Marchlyn Mawr overnight (equivalent to hundreds of thousands of wind turbines- efficiency would be below viability).

Its main use is to control frequency which is far more critical than demand eg when demand peaks during a TV advert. They are not used to supply demand except locally in Scotland.

No more have been built in the UK for forty years because:

Increase in gas generating sets which can come on line quickly using the huge gas storage capacity near Doncaster.

Suitable sites have to have a considerable height difference.

Suitable sites need to be near urban areas as power lost in transmission is so great.

Reduction in availability of "massive off peak overproduction" by nuclear and coal generating sets.

Environmental issues.

Lakes used cannot be used for drinking water.

Lakes used must have minimum mud.

Existing dams cannot be used.

 

The "Longendale" scheme was the last English scheme considered and abandoned for all the above scheme.

 

 

Water overtopping to Derwent and Howden is not wasted as it is this water that is extracted downstream for the main users of the Derwent Valley scheme- Derby, Nottingham, Leicester and other east midlands towns. Yorkshire water sells its water rights share to these places.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Annie Bynnol

[apelike 10]

Electricity has to be transmitted at high voltage to minimise power losses.

 

That's true but only because it needs to be transmitted long distances.

 

Solar and wind energy just cannot supply the amount of power at a high enough voltage efficiently.

 

It could if it was more localised and we had smaller systems scattered around instead of relying on big installations. Granted some, such as wind do need to be appropriately located to be useful. The local Veolia incinerator for instance, apart from generating hot water for the hot-water pipeline also generates electricity that can output 19MW. Not a great deal but that is almost enough to operate the entire tram network of 25 trams.

[Obelix 11]

Ladybower hold more than 20 million cubic metres of water and is right on our doorstep. So how much power would it generate if 2,000,000 of those were pumped into Derwent at night using wind energy and allowed to generate power as required during the day. It's pretty windy up there as it is around Dale Dyke.

 

I dont think you can fit 20 million cu meters into Derwent and Howden.

 

Plus the other excellent reasons noted above. You also have the problems of lack of head which would preclude the efficient Francis wheels of Cruachan being used.

[Cyclone 10]

That's true but only because it needs to be transmitted long distances.

 

 

 

It could if it was more localised and we had smaller systems scattered around instead of relying on big installations. Granted some, such as wind do need to be appropriately located to be useful. The local Veolia incinerator for instance, apart from generating hot water for the hot-water pipeline also generates electricity that can output 19MW. Not a great deal but that is almost enough to operate the entire tram network of 25 trams.

 

Local wind power generation is still entirely pointless when the wind stops and we STILL need the power generating. Because it means that the capacity has sat there all the time, doing nothing. Duplicating the potential of all the wind power available.

 

---------- Post added 25-01-2016 at 08:40 ----------

 

We use a heat pump to generate hot water It takes heat from the ground and gives us a minimum 70 Kwh per day. If we ran it 24/7 it would take care of most of our energy needs. Itworks in all weathers regardless of temperature or wind.

 

It doesn't run by magic, it requires electricity. So I'm not really sure what point you were making here.

[Eric Arthur 10]

Local wind power generation is still entirely pointless when the wind stops and we STILL need the power generating. Because it means that the capacity has sat there all the time, doing nothing. Duplicating the potential of all the wind power available.

Do you appreciate that the gas and coal power stations are turned up and down as required? They don't run of the same rate when renewables are operating. Yes, gas and coal generators sometimes run at lower output, though rarely nothing unless being maintained, but you're completely missing the point if you think it's a reason to dismiss wind energy. It's a non-issue.

[JFKvsNixon 11]

The wind is still supplying more electricity than coal, only just though. Wind - 13.39% and coal - 13.32%.

[Frayava 10]

A point to note the re the above comments is coal and gas supplies can be accessed whenever needed. Out put can be turned up or down as required. This cannot be said of wind/ solar / water or anything similar.

 

Press a button at one of the coal fired stations and there is an instant response there when you need it.

[foxy lady 10]

 

It doesn't run by magic, it requires electricity. So I'm not really sure what point you were making here.

 

Well actually the heat pump extracts around 7kw of heat from ground water whilst consuming the power required by a large freezer. So that is exactly the point on a thread about "Coal and gas versus renewables"

[Frayava 10]

The wind is still supplying more electricity than coal, only just though. Wind - 13.39% and coal - 13.32%.

 

And when the " storm" hits on Tuesday / Wednesday there will be periods when the wind strength will be such that the turbines will need to be switched off in case of damage.

 

Gas is contributing 34% so what is going to replace that on the renewable front?

[foxy lady 10]

I dont think you can fit 20 million cu meters into Derwent and Howden.

 

Plus the other excellent reasons noted above. You also have the problems of lack of head which would preclude the efficient Francis wheels of Cruachan being used.

 

Which is why I was talking of 2 million and not 20 million. As unbeliever quoted. Enough to supply 3/4 of the homes in Sheffield.

Edited January 25, 2016 by foxy lady

[JFKvsNixon 11]

And when the " storm" hits on Tuesday / Wednesday there will be periods when the wind strength will be such that the turbines will need to be switched off in case of damage.

 

Gas is contributing 34% so what is going to replace that on the renewable front?

 

It's a good thing that the turbines are turned off, it'll be stupid to allow them to be damaged wouldn't it? On other days wind allows us to burn less coal making less pollution, this is a good thing isn't it?

 

I think that France has the right idea at the moment with the vast majority of their needs being supplied by nuclear. Away from nuclear, currently gas is generating only 10.2% of their needs and coal 1.4%, even hydro generates more than coal and gas at 13.6% of their needs.