Tree campaign in Sheffield in 2016 (continuation thread)

[Lotusflower 10]

Not the question I put though, is it?

 

I'm not looking at apportioning blame, I simply wanted to know whether the council tax payers' costs would be recovered and, if so, from where.

 

May I respectfully suggest you ask your friends in the council.

[redfox 10]

Costs follow the event don't they ?

 

The council will have incurred substantial costs already irrespective of the outcome in defending the case - I read somewhere that the action is being undertaken pro bono for the campaigners but i may be wrong on that one.

[Lotusflower 10]

Costs follow the event don't they ?

 

The council will have incurred substantial costs already irrespective of the outcome in defending the case - I read somewhere that the action is being undertaken pro bono for the campaigners but i may be wrong on that one.

 

Re my bold above.

 

Part right, part wrong as I understand it.

[Longcol 604]

The term urban forest refers to all publicly and privately owned trees within an urban area—including individual trees along streets"

 

I don't think anyone is disputing the benefits of the urban forest - even though the benefits from the deciduous trees in the entire northern hemisphere - never mind Sheffield - have been negligible for the last few months, like they are every winter.

 

What appears to be in dispute is claims that a 1% reduction in the urban forest will mean we face an "ecological and environmental disaster".

 

https://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11299070&postcount=386

[Mindfulness 10]

In a 2.2 BILLION contract, one would expect Sheffield City Council to be doing right by it's citizens. Sadly, it is NOT. Or perhaps certain people are of the mind we should continue with a mass felling and mutilation programme, being driven entirely by the commercial considerations of a private company? Their profits are of course, FAR more important than the tiny matter of heritage and well being for us and our children. Oh yes, I almost forgot, the high failure lollipop saplings we see dying around the city make it ALL better, don't they. I feel so proud that our healthy, century old trees are being so phenomenally poorly substituted in this way, incurring a massive ecosystem service debt that will NEVER be replaced. And equally proud to have Amey's incompetent staff run their planing machines down the trunks and roots of our healthy trees, again and again and AGAIN, causing permanent and irreversible damage. Whilst SCC continues to make feeble excuses and false promise...and well, just noise really, in the background. Well done Sheffield City Council. You must be SO proud.

[Longcol 604]

In a 2.2 BILLION contract, one would expect Sheffield City Council to be doing right by it's citizens. Sadly, it is NOT. Or perhaps certain people are of the mind we should continue with a mass felling and mutilation programme, being driven entirely by the commercial considerations of a private company? Their profits are of course, FAR more important than the tiny matter of heritage and well being for us and our children. Oh yes, I almost forgot, the high failure lollipop saplings we see dying around the city make it ALL better, don't they. I feel so proud that our healthy, century old trees are being so phenomenally poorly substituted in this way, incurring a massive ecosystem service debt that will NEVER be replaced. And equally proud to have Amey's incompetent staff run their planing machines down the trunks and roots of our healthy trees, again and again and AGAIN, causing permanent and irreversible damage. Whilst SCC continues to make feeble excuses and false promise...and well, just noise really, in the background. Well done Sheffield City Council. You must be SO proud.

 

So how is the 1% reduction in the urban forest going to make an "ecological and environmental disaster"?

[Mindfulness 10]

So how is the 1% reduction in the urban forest going to make an "ecological and environmental disaster"?

 

Do you know how much air gets filtered by ONE large canopy street tree per year Longcol? It's a lot. And that filtration happens, year after year after year - unless that tree is destroyed. Now multiply that value for one tree, by potentially 18,000 of said high value street trees - and the tonnage of air that will cease to be filtered year, upon year, upon year - for 100 years (most of our street trees have a SULE of 80+ years). And that is just ONE ecosystem benefit, out of the RAFT of benefits that a mature street tree provides for us, every day. The effect is enormous and cumulative and PERMANENT for Sheffield. Once these large trees are gone, they will never be replaced. And your lollipop saplings are a 60:1 impoverished substitute.

[Longcol 604]

Do you know how much air gets filtered by ONE large canopy street tree per year Longcol? It's a lot. And that filtration happens, year after year after year - unless that tree is destroyed. Now multiply that value for one tree, by potentially 18,000 of said high value street trees - and the tonnage of air that will cease to be filtered year, upon year, upon year - for 100 years (most of our street trees have a SULE of 80+ years). And that is just ONE ecosystem benefit, out of the RAFT of benefits that a mature street tree provides for us, every day. The effect is enormous and cumulative and PERMANENT for Sheffield. Once these large trees are gone, they will never be replaced. And your lollipop saplings are a 60:1 impoverished substitute.

 

How much in percentage terms is that of the urban forest for those claims?

 

And can we stop pretending that all street trees are "high value" - what about all the "lollipop trees" in Dore etc, have a look at the STAG facebook site.

 

 

As for "permanent" - so a tree never ever grows - all trees have been the same size since day one? Not the ones in the urban forest where I live - sycamore just behind my back garden has grown from a sapling to over 25 feet in 20 years,

 

So how does a 1% reduction in the urban forest lead to "ecological and environmental disaster"?

 

Like I've said - the entire deciduous forest in the northern hemisphere shuts down for several months - no benefits "every day".

Edited March 19, 2016 by Longcol

[Lotusflower 10]

I don't think anyone is disputing the benefits of the urban forest - even though the benefits from the deciduous trees in the entire northern hemisphere - never mind Sheffield - have been negligible for the last few months, like they are every winter.

 

What appears to be in dispute is claims that a 1% reduction in the urban forest will mean we face an "ecological and environmental disaster".

 

https://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11299070&postcount=386

 

Re my bold above.

 

Please explain what you mean in greater detail.

 

---------- Post added 19-03-2016 at 07:54 ----------

 

How much in percentage terms is that of the urban forest for those claims?

 

And can we stop pretending that all street trees are "high value" - what about all the "lollipop trees" in Dore etc, have a look at the STAG facebook site.

 

 

As for "permanent" - so a tree never ever grows - all trees have been the same size since day one? Not the ones in the urban forest where I live - sycamore just behind my back garden has grown from a sapling to over 25 feet in 20 years,

 

So how does a 1% reduction in the urban forest lead to "ecological and environmental disaster"?

 

Like I've said - the entire deciduous forest in the northern hemisphere shuts down for several months - no benefits "every day".

 

Where are you getting this 1% figure from?

 

I would also like to know where you are getting the information to make the statement in your last sentence. "No benefits"...really?

[Eric Arthur 10]

Not the question I put though, is it?

 

I'm not looking at apportioning blame, I simply wanted to know whether the council tax payers' costs would be recovered and, if so, from where.

 

Turn the question around. The campaigners have already convinced a judge that the council are on shakey ground. Who's paying for that? Who's going to pay if the council lose again?

[Mindfulness 10]

Turn the question around. The campaigners have already convinced a judge that the council are on shakey ground

 

Completely correct. The Council ARE on shaky ground, no convincing was required. There is NO other LA that has acted with this degree of incompetency at ALL levels. And employing a company who use arborists with questionable knowledge, experience and morals. NO other arborists, apart from Amey arborists, are recommending this kind of wholesale felling in a city.

 

Why are Amey on their own? Because they are being driven solely by profits and not the best interests of community. Not the best interests of Sheffielders. And with people in charge who have not the first inkling of urban forestry. They are a complete and utter disgrace.

 

---------- Post added 19-03-2016 at 11:20 ----------

 

So how does a 1% reduction in the urban forest lead to "ecological and environmental disaster"?

 

Do you know how much air gets filtered by ONE large canopy street tree per year Longcol? It's a lot. And that filtration happens, year after year after year - unless that tree is destroyed. Now multiply that value for one tree, by potentially 18,000 of said high value street trees - and the tonnage of air that will cease to be filtered year, upon year, upon year - for 100 years (most of our street trees have a SULE of 80+ years). And that is just ONE ecosystem benefit, out of the RAFT of benefits that a mature street tree provides for us, every day. The effect is enormous and cumulative and PERMANENT for Sheffield. Once these large trees are gone, they will never be replaced. And your lollipop saplings are a 60:1 impoverished substitute.

 

---------- Post added 19-03-2016 at 11:26 ----------

 

Like I've said - the entire deciduous forest in the northern hemisphere shuts down for several months - no benefits "every day"

 

What science is proving to be the most significant ecosystem benefit of trees, from the raft of benefits they provide (pollution control, flood prevention, temperature regulation, biodiversity, habitat, carbon sequestration, property value) is health and well being. Looking at trees calms our limbic system and makes us happy.

 

Whilst season does affect the level of some benefits, health and well being, flood prevention, biodiversity, habitat, carbon sequestration, property value are year round benefits.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Mindfulness

[cgksheff 44]

Turn the question around. The campaigners have already convinced a judge that the council are on shakey ground. Who's paying for that? Who's going to pay if the council lose again?

 

If the Council loses, we (Council Tax payers) all pay.

 

If the Council wins in overturning the injunction, they can ask for an order for their costs to be awarded against Mr Dillner.