Campaign grows to switch the building of HS2 station to Sheffield city

[Dannyno 19]

So what did our council spend all that money doing then??

 

What the Council wanted is stated here: http://www.welcometosheffield.co.uk/content/images/fromassets/100_6970_030216162050.pdf

 

They didn't get what they wanted, obviously. The case in the document linked above is for an HS2 station at Sheffield Victoria, rather than Meadowhall (which seemed to be HS2 Ltd's favourite) not a "spur".

 

SCC seem to be being blamed for losing an HS2 station in Sheffield completely, by campaigning for a City location. But it's not obvious to me that had SCC campaigned instead for the station to be at Meadowhall, they would have got that either.

[tinfoilhat 11]

What the Council wanted is stated here: http://www.welcometosheffield.co.uk/content/images/fromassets/100_6970_030216162050.pdf

 

They didn't get what they wanted, obviously. The case in the document linked above is for an HS2 station at Sheffield Victoria, rather than Meadowhall (which seemed to be HS2 Ltd's favourite) not a "spur".

 

SCC seem to be being blamed for losing an HS2 station in Sheffield completely, by campaigning for a City location. But it's not obvious to me that had SCC campaigned instead for the station to be at Meadowhall, they would have got that either.

 

You've lost me. SCC wanted a spanking new station, with presumably, a city centre location, which, presumably they lobbied for over the Meadowhall option. I'm still not getting why SCC aren't at fault, they could have kept the Meadowhall option if they'd kept quiet.

 

Just out of interest, what did the councils at Derby, Nottingham and Leeds say? Did they want big changes? Did they get them?

[Beligerence 10]

You've lost me. SCC wanted a spanking new station, with presumably, a city centre location, which, presumably they lobbied for over the Meadowhall option. I'm still not getting why SCC aren't at fault, they could have kept the Meadowhall option if they'd kept quiet.

 

Just out of interest, what did the councils at Derby, Nottingham and Leeds say? Did they want big changes? Did they get them?

 

Why would Leeds want big changes, from the outset they were getting a station in the centre with no need to use slower existing lines.

[Dannyno 19]

You've lost me. SCC wanted a spanking new station, with presumably, a city centre location, which, presumably they lobbied for over the Meadowhall option. I'm still not getting why SCC aren't at fault, they could have kept the Meadowhall option if they'd kept quiet.

 

Just out of interest, what did the councils at Derby, Nottingham and Leeds say? Did they want big changes? Did they get them?

 

SCC lobbied for a "Sheffield Victoria" station option instead of a station at Meadowhall, as is clear in the document I linked to.

 

They didn't get it.

 

What I don't understand is why you think Meadowhall would have won the station had SCC not lobbied for "Sheffield Victoria".

[tinfoilhat 11]

SCC lobbied for a "Sheffield Victoria" station option instead of a station at Meadowhall, as is clear in the document I linked to.

 

They didn't get it.

 

What I don't understand is why you think Meadowhall would have won the station had SCC not lobbied for "Sheffield Victoria".

 

So, somebody somewhere - I know not who - decides to put a station a Meadowhall, SCC agrees and it gets taken away? Why offer it in the first place? Is toton still on?

 

---------- Post added 04-01-2017 at 18:19 ----------

 

Why would Leeds want big changes, from the outset they were getting a station in the centre with no need to use slower existing lines.

 

What about derby and Nottingham?

[Dannyno 19]

Just out of interest, what did the councils at Derby, Nottingham and Leeds say? Did they want big changes? Did they get them?

 

Leeds, Derby, Nottingham etc took part in the "HS2 East" lobbying effort: http://www.hs2east.co.uk/about-us.html

 

But there were local campaigns too:

 

Leeds lobbied for building to begin in Leeds

http://news.leeds.gov.uk/hs2-building-should-begin-in-leeds

 

Bradford lobbied for local rail improvements:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/11528628.Council_leader_lobbies_for_Bradford_benefits_to_HS2_project/

 

Nottingham has its own wish list:

http://www.nottinghampost.com/nottingham-trams-could-link-to-hs2/story-29907967-detail/story.html

 

---------- Post added 04-01-2017 at 18:25 ----------

 

So, somebody somewhere - I know not who - decides to put a station a Meadowhall, SCC agrees and it gets taken away? Why offer it in the first place? Is toton still on?

 

Hang on. Although Meadowhall was HS2 Ltd's initial preference, according to them (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/535307/CS550A_South_Yorkshire_Report_WEB.pdf p13), there had been no decision. There still isn't a final decision.

 

The reasons for HS2's change of mind are given in that document. Having read that, I still don't know why you are blaming SCC.

[tinfoilhat 11]

Leeds, Derby, Nottingham etc took part in the "HS2 East" lobbying effort: http://www.hs2east.co.uk/about-us.html

 

But there were local campaigns too:

 

Leeds lobbied for building to begin in Leeds

http://news.leeds.gov.uk/hs2-building-should-begin-in-leeds

 

Bradford lobbied for local rail improvements:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/11528628.Council_leader_lobbies_for_Bradford_benefits_to_HS2_project/

 

Nottingham has its own wish list:

http://www.nottinghampost.com/nottingham-trams-could-link-to-hs2/story-29907967-detail/story.html

 

Nottingham want to extend their tram line a couple miles. Shefffield wanted a brand new city centre station.

 

---------- Post added 04-01-2017 at 18:38 ----------

 

Leeds, Derby, Nottingham etc took part in the "HS2 East" lobbying effort: http://www.hs2east.co.uk/about-us.html

 

But there were local campaigns too:

 

Leeds lobbied for building to begin in Leeds

http://news.leeds.gov.uk/hs2-building-should-begin-in-leeds

 

Bradford lobbied for local rail improvements:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/11528628.Council_leader_lobbies_for_Bradford_benefits_to_HS2_project/

 

Nottingham has its own wish list:

http://www.nottinghampost.com/nottingham-trams-could-link-to-hs2/story-29907967-detail/story.html

 

---------- Post added 04-01-2017 at 18:25 ----------

 

 

Hang on. Although Meadowhall was HS2 Ltd's initial preference, according to them (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/535307/CS550A_South_Yorkshire_Report_WEB.pdf p13), there had been no decision. There still isn't a final decision.

 

The reasons for HS2's change of mind are given in that document. Having read that, I still don't know why you are blaming SCC.

 

So you don't think hs2 listened to SCC lobbying then - ignored it completely. SCC were quite clear from the report I skimmed through saying they didn't want the Meadowhall option, or they'd have kept quiet.

 

Annie further up the thread says they're starting next year - better make some decisions soon then.

Edited January 4, 2017 by tinfoilhat

[sadbrewer 20]

I suggest you go and read the documents that looked at the various routes.

 

Yes SCC were lobbying for a city centre station rather than Meadowhall. Well spotted. But the problems with the Meadowhall option would have been noticed at some point whatever the decision. So if it's impractical it's better to delete it as an option now rather than halfway through building it.

 

 

Difficulties associated with the project though we're raised in The Sheffield Star " relating the experience of a former Asst. City Engineer encountered when building the Don Valley Sewer ,

The Asst.City Engineer did though acknowledge he was neither a geologist or a construction expert .

 

None of the problems at Meadowhall were insoluble to HS2 , their Engineers were quite confident about this , in fact Sir David Higgins said " it is constructible"

[Dannyno 19]

Nottingham want to extend their tram line a couple miles. Shefffield wanted a brand new city centre station.

 

Yes. I was just helpfully answering a question.

[sadbrewer 20]

SCC lobbied for a "Sheffield Victoria" station option instead of a station at Meadowhall, as is clear in the document I linked to.

 

They didn't get it.

 

What I don't understand is why you think Meadowhall would have won the station had SCC not lobbied for "Sheffield Victoria".

 

Meadowhall would have won it because there wasn't a single dissenting voice...except SCC.

Hs2 wanted it , MP's wanted it , Sheffield Chamber of Commerce Transport Forum wanted it ,

Barnsley, Doncaster and Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council's all wanted it ....no one voice except Cllr. Dore and her Sheffield Labour Party colleaues

[tinfoilhat 11]

Yes. I was just helpfully answering a question.

 

And helpful it was - I'm having difficulty squaring your circle that SCC appears to have zero influence on HS2.

 

And having looked at a map, I now know how far trams in Nottingham go

[Dannyno 19]

So you don't think hs2 listened to SCC lobbying then - ignored it completely. SCC were quite clear from the report I skimmed through saying they didn't want the Meadowhall option, or they'd have kept quiet.

 

Well, SCC didn't get what they wanted. That's obvious. Does that mean their arguments were "ignored completely"? Who can say? Not me, and certainly not you.

 

I hold no brief for SCC. I'm merely wondering what grounds there are to blame SCC for HS2's change of mind on Meadowhall.

 

And I'm expressing surprise that given HS2's stated reasons for changing its mind on Meadowhall, as expressed in the document I linked to, anyone would think that if only SCC had said nothing at all, Meadowhall would still be the favoured option.

 

Just for the record, here is what HS2 say:

 

whilst building a station on a viaduct is not easy, it avoided the pitfalls of the densely urbanised nature of inner Sheffield. It is constructible.

 

But a number of new factors have emerged which also need to be considered in any balanced judgement.The most significant is the stated desire of Transport for the North’s Northern Powerhouse Rail project to reduce the journey time between the major city centres in the North. And in the case of Leeds city centre to Sheffield city centre to 30 mins, whilst also increasing the frequency of such services. Whilst that is not part of our remit, it clearly sets a strategic context which we need to take account of in reaching any recommendation.

 

Whilst Meadowhall does provide good connectivity to Sheffield city centre it does not provide a context which helps achieve that further ambition.

 

and

 

The HS2 Independent Design Panel also has concerns about the constraints at Meadowhall, including the highways infrastructure, air quality, microclimate and station design challenges.

 

---------- Post added 04-01-2017 at 19:48 ----------

 

Meadowhall would have won it because there wasn't a single dissenting voice...except SCC.

Hs2 wanted it , MP's wanted it , Sheffield Chamber of Commerce Transport Forum wanted it ,

Barnsley, Doncaster and Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council's all wanted it ....no one voice except Cllr. Dore and her Sheffield Labour Party colleaues

 

I have trouble with the notion that SCC had a veto of this kind, and that their advocacy of "Sheffield Victoria" was enough to scupper the Meadowhall option on its own.

 

I think if HS2 Ltd really wanted to build at Meadowhall, they would have stuck to that plan. SCC's preferences were not cited by HS2 Ltd as one of the reasons for change.

 

So again, what actual evidence is there that the position of SCC changed HS2's mind?

 

---------- Post added 04-01-2017 at 19:50 ----------

 

And helpful it was - I'm having difficulty squaring your circle that SCC appears to have zero influence on HS2.

 

And having looked at a map, I now know how far trams in Nottingham go

 

I'm not making any claims about what influence SCC may or may not have had, except to observe that their lobbying for "Sheffield Victoria" obviously failed.

 

What I'm asking for is evidence that SCC's position was what made HS2 dump the Meadowhall option. HS2 give other reasons.