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Campaign grows to switch the building of HS2 station to Sheffield city

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16 minutes ago, Robin-H said:

Only a third of the cost of which was funded by the government. It does seem things happen quite a bit quicker and cheaper when private companies have more to lose..  

Found this from 2016.  Based on the HS2 figures at 2016, which have now doubled to £104 billion at the end of 2019, the French completed their project at a fifth of the cost. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/26/hs2-cost-line-france-tours-bordeaux-report

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39 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

The ONS current guesstimate for 2040 is the UK will have just over 75 million people living here.  As for cars, a number of sources predict around 11 million vehicles, which as we know will now have to be electric. 

 

Now if you'd like to tell us all how many of the above will be using the HS2 network, given that the majority of the above will most likely settle in the South East of England & within the M25? 

 

There's no indication that all these extra people will want to travel on trains at that time, (between now & 2040 at the earliest predicted HS rolling stock date for HS2b), but if they are in the 90% of regular, daily commuters, it'll be journeys of 30-40 miles into cities where they work, taken more likely on the standard railway network which they currently suffer, (& pay high prices for) not HS2 & its  Northern offshoots. 

 

It also won't eleviate commuter problems in the South East or for Norfolk commuters trying to get to their work in London. 

 

If HS2 is so important to the future economy & prosperity of the UK, why hasn't the work started in the 3 termination points at the same time with the rail lines working towards each other as, has been the case in the past, including putting rail lines under the Channel? 

 

The work from London to Birmingham having already been started, would still be finished before the Northern spurs & we wouldn't be looking at a predicted construction start date for our region of 2035 with train on the tracks by 2040 

 

Population & increased vehicle numbers therefore appear irrelevant to the HS2 argument. 

I haven't got a clue how many will be using HS2 - what a strange question to ask me, I'd ask those who planned it, you might get a better response.

 

However, given they are planning on running alot of trains on hs2, I'd guess quite a few. The number of rail journies has gone from 400million to 449m in the last 5 years. I've no idea why you think Now if you'd like to tell us all how many of the above will be using the HS2 network, given that the majority of the above will most likely settle in the South East of England & within the M25? what are you basing that on?

 

And in 2040 you can't buy a petrol or diesel car, there will be still lots on the road. And unless many more roads are going to be built they'll be congested with electric vehicles.

 

Population & increased vehicle numbers therefore appear irrelevant to the HS2 argument.  To who? 

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18 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Yippie for the civil servants.

 

Meanwhile back in the real world the rest of us don't all have the luxury options of sitting at home in our pants attending 'online meetings'.   

 

Some of us actually have to get out there and meet people face-to-face.  Some of us have to go and inspect, interview and undertake work on sites.  Some of us have to attend inquests and court hearings at many venues around the country  (including London).   

 

This revolution of the online technology does not eliminate the need for travel.  It does not replace the requirement for people required to physically be in the presence of or physically required to do actions on a site.  Travel will always exist and there will always be ever increasing numbers of people doing it.

 

People stupidly query 'what's the big deal about shaving 20-minutes off a journey  to London''.    But the entire project is so much more.

 

As someone who has to train travel regularly it  could make a massive difference.   With the right connections and a combination of both HS2 and existing rail I may end up with an ability to shave off was previously a 3-4 hour journey into half the time.  That in turn could make what would be another overnight stay in to a one day job.

 

Add on the obvious benefit that it will improving the capacity on the existing rail network -  it's about time we stop with the whining rhetoric and get behind such a project.

 

Given the wholly disproportionate amount of money spent on travel in the South East it's damn right something is finally coming our way.

 

I just hope the corbynmentalists and hug a tree brigade don't screw this up.

Oooooo!  Clearly not seen any of my previous posts then?  While I try & do my bit for the environment, I could hardly be considered to one of Corbyn's mates or his blinkered acolytes.

 

Anyhow, back on track.  You're dealing with someone who stated on past relevant SF threads, that there should be faster, more direct links between Sheffield, Leeds & Manchester with both road & rail tunnels through the Pennines.   

Now on to your post.  As you state;

"As someone who has to train travel regularly it  could make a massive difference.  With the right connections and a combination of both HS2 and existing rail I may end up with an ability to shave off was previously a 3-4 hour journey into half the time." 

 

I think we'd all like to  know what you pay for this privilege, (1st or 2nd class? ) & how long your journey is?  Presumably, we're talking from Sheffield & by the wording of your post, it's for business, so you don't get the benefit of the advertised off-peak prices etc, seen on tv, when you have to travel at 13:55pm, on the third Tuesday, next November? 

 

So what is your return fare from Sheffield or wherever?  

 

Another question?  If you could use an HS2 train tomorrow, given it is going to run on its own dedicated line what do you think you'd be asked to pay? 

 

And my last question?  Well, you've almost answered it yourself. " With the RIGHT CONNECTIONS and a combination of both HS2 and EXISTING  RAIL I MAY end up with an ability to shave off was previously a 3-4 hour journey into half the time. 

 

No guarantee of that then the rest of the rail infrastructure seems to be takia bit of a back seat to HS2.  

 

Additionally, unless you upsticks & move to Birmingham, you've you're looking at 2040 at the earliest before you'll be able to shave any minutes off that journey time. 

 

Now while I appreciate that a number of commuters do need to travel from Sheffield to London on a regular basis, I never seen any tv coverage of people struggling on the Master Cutler, so you & your fellow commuters must be in a minority when compared to those commuters who struggle with their 30 mile, morning & evening commutes. 

 

By all means use the money to sort out the routes for the majority first. 

 

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Yesterday, I started a new thread on HS2, specifically about the visibility, or lack of, a figurehead to lead Sheffield through the next critical stage of decision making about HS phase 2 and NPR. The mods have now decided to integrate it into this wider HS2 thread (#26 above).
The only voice I have heard so far is from Dan Jarvis, the current Mayor of SCR. His contempt for Sheffield is well known - indeed in the press release I read, he could not even bring himself to mention the city's name once. On the other hand, in fairness, it is the ONLY voice I have heard locally so far.
While we continue to bicker and argue about past decisions, other regions are vociferous in pushing their cases for the next stages.
Where is the voice of Sheffield itself? With this disastrous lack of leadership, there is a real danger that Sheffield, and by association, the rest of S. Yorks will be bypassed entirely, not only from HS2 but also NPR.

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Get the Chinese over...they'll have it built in a month !

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4 hours ago, Baron99 said:

Oooooo!  Clearly not seen any of my previous posts then?  While I try & do my bit for the environment, I could hardly be considered to one of Corbyn's mates or his blinkered acolytes.

 

Anyhow, back on track.  You're dealing with someone who stated on past relevant SF threads, that there should be faster, more direct links between Sheffield, Leeds & Manchester with both road & rail tunnels through the Pennines.   

Now on to your post.  As you state;

"As someone who has to train travel regularly it  could make a massive difference.  With the right connections and a combination of both HS2 and existing rail I may end up with an ability to shave off was previously a 3-4 hour journey into half the time." 

 

I think we'd all like to  know what you pay for this privilege, (1st or 2nd class? ) & how long your journey is?  Presumably, we're talking from Sheffield & by the wording of your post, it's for business, so you don't get the benefit of the advertised off-peak prices etc, seen on tv, when you have to travel at 13:55pm, on the third Tuesday, next November? 

 

So what is your return fare from Sheffield or wherever?  

 

Another question?  If you could use an HS2 train tomorrow, given it is going to run on its own dedicated line what do you think you'd be asked to pay? 

 

And my last question?  Well, you've almost answered it yourself. " With the RIGHT CONNECTIONS and a combination of both HS2 and EXISTING  RAIL I MAY end up with an ability to shave off was previously a 3-4 hour journey into half the time. 

 

No guarantee of that then the rest of the rail infrastructure seems to be takia bit of a back seat to HS2.  

 

Additionally, unless you upsticks & move to Birmingham, you've you're looking at 2040 at the earliest before you'll be able to shave any minutes off that journey time. 

 

Now while I appreciate that a number of commuters do need to travel from Sheffield to London on a regular basis, I never seen any tv coverage of people struggling on the Master Cutler, so you & your fellow commuters must be in a minority when compared to those commuters who struggle with their 30 mile, morning & evening commutes. 

 

By all means use the money to sort out the routes for the majority first. 

 

Wow, how very judgemental of you.  I certainly dont travel on the Master Cutler and know very well about the struggle of commuters.  I do it.   Try getting a seat on the 8.00 train to Manchester or even getting on board any of the peak services to Leeds.   Not all my travel is long distance.

 

I know full well that none of these projects will completed any time in my lifetime but perhaps im not completely selfish and care about infrastructure for the next generation.  Despite all the futureologists guff the reality is that the the word of work is going to change that much as I have pointed out earlier.    The digital revolution may work well for some but not all.  There will always be demand for travel and ever increasing populations who need to do it.   We are living and working longer.  Demand will not stop and neither should progress. 

 

Its none of your business what and how I pay for my travel tickets and completely irrelevant to the points I am trying to make.  

But for the record, just because I am travelling for business does not mean that I throw around the company credit card without a care in the world.   Since clients often pay for my travel (some of which are civil service) they certainly dont allow first class nor does my company - even for Directors.   Like most sensible businesses it seeks out the cheapest fares and routes where feesibly possible.    Its what all sensible people would do right?   

 

Yes, I would consider it highly likely that HS2 will have a costs premium just like most train fares do (why on earth do you think cheap tickets have travel restrictions) but that will be the balance most people will decide between either business need, personal convenience or necessity.   Just like everyone does now.  

 

Is such circumstance any different than people now who have a choice between flying over catching the train or catching the train over going on the coach or going on the coach over catching multiple local buses?

 

Since in my working life I make money when stat with clients not sat on trains, any increased costs that cuts travel down to bare minimum will likely be far outweighed by my chargeable billing.    Simiarly, if someone CHOOSES to pay HS2 price for the conveinence of doing a leisurely day trip to london with a quick 1h 20 journey its for them to do so.  I certainly would if it meant I could gain an extra 2 hours tourist time rather than sat on a train for longer.   If someone chooses to start a job in Leeds because they can earn more than afford the HS2 premium which allows them a 10-15 minute commute time why shouldn't they do it.

 

Nobody has ever said that HS2 was going to be an alternative to the other rail infrastrucure but its certainly going to be thing that kick starts the rest of the developments. 

 

Now since you are back in your box and asked for some examples, I will give you some.

 

Sheffield to Maidstone was a recent one.   A journey that took just under 4 hours in total each way.  With HS2 I could have had a time reduction on the London section of the route to less than 90 minutes rather than the current times of anything up to 2 hours 20.   That would give me more options of how to change and even more scope to schedule with the less frequent St Pancras HS1 route (another hour saved rather than the stopping service from Victoria).    In other words, that 4 hours could drop to just 2.5 hours each way.     When you are looking at working time, that could mean the difference between overnight accommodation costs or enough time to do the job in a 8 hour single day.

 

What about other factors, London itself changes from being up before dawn starts to get to a 10am meeting, to leaving home at a civilised hour.   

 

Thinking more locally, enough with the 90 minute bone shakers into Leeds, anyone within a reasonable distance of Sheffield Station could be getting up there in estmiated times of 10-15 minutes.    That opens up scope for job opportunities without the burden of the well lothed M1 commute.    Extending that further, think about getting up to the North East, York or even Scotland.  If one can reach leeds as a 'hub' in 15 minutes it would make a massive impacts to such overall journey times.

 

Then we look at the capacity issue again.  With more people going on HS2 that frees up space on the already jammed lines in the region.  That gives scope to the increased number or faster localised services which is what everyone has been screaming for. 

 

 

Edited by ECCOnoob

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The personal comments can stop now.

Discuss the topic, not each other.

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40 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

Thinking more locally, enough with the 90 minute bone shakers into Leeds, anyone within a reasonable distance of Sheffield Station could be getting up there in estmiated times of 10-15 minutes.    

I doubt if you could get from the forecourt of Sheffield Midland to Leeds in that time.

 

HS2 site says 27 minutes platform to platform.

 

https://www.hs2.org.uk/stations/leeds-station/

Edited by Longcol

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2 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Wow, how very judgemental of you.  I certainly dont travel on the Master Cutler and know very well about the struggle of commuters.  I do it.   Try getting a seat on the 8.00 train to Manchester or even getting on board any of the peak services to Leeds.   Not all my travel is long distance.

 

I know full well that none of these projects will completed any time in my lifetime but perhaps im not completely selfish and care about infrastructure for the next generation.  Despite all the futureologists guff the reality is that the the word of work is going to change that much as I have pointed out earlier.    The digital revolution may work well for some but not all.  There will always be demand for travel and ever increasing populations who need to do it.   We are living and working longer.  Demand will not stop and neither should progress. 

 

Its none of your business what and how I pay for my travel tickets and completely irrelevant to the points I am trying to make.  

But for the record, just because I am travelling for business does not mean that I throw around the company credit card without a care in the world.   Since clients often pay for my travel (some of which are civil service) they certainly dont allow first class nor does my company - even for Directors.   Like most sensible businesses it seeks out the cheapest fares and routes where feesibly possible.    Its what all sensible people would do right?   

 

Yes, I would consider it highly likely that HS2 will have a costs premium just like most train fares do (why on earth do you think cheap tickets have travel restrictions) but that will be the balance most people will decide between either business need, personal convenience or necessity.   Just like everyone does now.  

 

Is such circumstance any different than people now who have a choice between flying over catching the train or catching the train over going on the coach or going on the coach over catching multiple local buses?

 

Since in my working life I make money when stat with clients not sat on trains, any increased costs that cuts travel down to bare minimum will likely be far outweighed by my chargeable billing.    Simiarly, if someone CHOOSES to pay HS2 price for the conveinence of doing a leisurely day trip to london with a quick 1h 20 journey its for them to do so.  I certainly would if it meant I could gain an extra 2 hours tourist time rather than sat on a train for longer.   If someone chooses to start a job in Leeds because they can earn more than afford the HS2 premium which allows them a 10-15 minute commute time why shouldn't they do it.

 

Nobody has ever said that HS2 was going to be an alternative to the other rail infrastrucure but its certainly going to be thing that kick starts the rest of the developments. 

 

Now since you are back in your box and asked for some examples, I will give you some.

 

Sheffield to Maidstone was a recent one.   A journey that took just under 4 hours in total each way.  With HS2 I could have had a time reduction on the London section of the route to less than 90 minutes rather than the current times of anything up to 2 hours 20.   That would give me more options of how to change and even more scope to schedule with the less frequent St Pancras HS1 route (another hour saved rather than the stopping service from Victoria).    In other words, that 4 hours could drop to just 2.5 hours each way.     When you are looking at working time, that could mean the difference between overnight accommodation costs or enough time to do the job in a 8 hour single day.

 

What about other factors, London itself changes from being up before dawn starts to get to a 10am meeting, to leaving home at a civilised hour.   

 

Thinking more locally, enough with the 90 minute bone shakers into Leeds, anyone within a reasonable distance of Sheffield Station could be getting up there in estmiated times of 10-15 minutes.    That opens up scope for job opportunities without the burden of the well lothed M1 commute.    Extending that further, think about getting up to the North East, York or even Scotland.  If one can reach leeds as a 'hub' in 15 minutes it would make a massive impacts to such overall journey times.

 

Then we look at the capacity issue again.  With more people going on HS2 that frees up space on the already jammed lines in the region.  That gives scope to the increased number or faster localised services which is what everyone has been screaming for. 

 

 

Thanks for the comprehensive response & in it you have spelled ouy what the real problem is for the vast majority of the daily train commuting public. 

 

Not the long distance journeys over 100 miles plus but the shorter commute of around 30 to 40 miles.  As you state, "Enough with the 90 minute bone shakers into Leeds," 

 

It is such as the Leeds routes that should be taking priority, along with links to the other major northern cities.  Poor old Doncaster, York, Newcastle & Liverpool don't even get a mention? 

 

 

Edited by Baron99

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25 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

Thanks for the comprehensive response & in it you have spelled ouy what the real problem is for the vast majority of the daily train commuting public. 

 

Not the long distance journeys over 100 miles plus but the shorter commute of around 30 to 40 miles.  As you state, "Enough with the 90 minute bone shakers into Leeds," 

 

It is such as the Leeds routes that should be taking priority, along with links to the other major northern cities.  Poor old Doncaster, York, Newcastle & Liverpool don't even get a mention? 

 

 

Doncaster is not a city - the main built up town is smaller than Barnsley, Rotherham, Huddersfield, Halifax , Wakefield, Hull, Bradford......

 

It is on the east coast main line though - like Newcastle and York.

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15 minutes ago, Longcol said:

Doncaster is not a city - the main built up town is smaller than Barnsley, Rotherham, Huddersfield, Halifax , Wakefield, Hull, Bradford......

 

It is on the east coast main line though - like Newcastle and York.

Give me a bit of artistic licence?  As you say, all on the main East Coast line but left out of the plan for the HS project. 

 

Presumably, if HS2b is ever finished, the folk from these areas & their surroundings will have to put up with whatever the ordinary standard railway stock & lines are in 2040(?) & trundle down to Leeds & Sheffield to catch a high speed train?  And based on current plans if they want a mini break in Liverpool, go down to Birmingham, switch trains, then go up the HS2a line to Manchester, then back on the bog standard stuff to trundle their way on to Merseyside? 

 

Someone pointed out in a news report the other day that it takes less time to get from London to Paris by train than it takes to get from Hull to Liverpool. 

 

A large chunk of £104 billion and rising is going to be spent here in the North & the journey time from the East to the West coast doesn't appear to look as though that's going to be reduced.

Edited by Baron99

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2 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

Give me a bit of artistic licence?  As you say, all on the main East Coast line but left out of the plan for the HS project. 

 

Presumably, if HS2b is ever finished, the folk from these areas & their surroundings will have to put up with whatever the ordinary standard railway stock & lines are in 2040(?) & trundle down to Leeds & Sheffield to catch a high speed train?  And based on current plans if they want a mini break in Liverpool, go down to Birmingham, switch trains, then go up the HS2a line to Manchester, then back on the bog standard stuff to trundle their way on to Merseyside? 

I thought the whole point of HS2 was to spread the London commuter belt further north.

 

And a mini break in Liverpool  :gag:

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