Campaign grows to switch the building of HS2 station to Sheffield city

[1978 14]

Like it or not, you are making excuses for Sheffield and the East Midlands getting shafted. Are you, by any chance, that blockhead Grayling's spokesperson? You sound like it.

 

Like it or not, the power of capital cites is usually far greater than the rest of the country. Paris, Madrid, Oslo, Berlin all get attention before the regions. From time to time that's partially offset and some cash comes out, but again it will tend to go to regional cities, like Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds and Newcastle.

 

HS2 will get as far as Birmingham. Beyond that it's all to play for. Any or all of the rest can still be pulled. In the meantime we have a period when developments south of Kettering (mostly for the benefit of London commuters) make that first part of HS2 to Birmingham vital to increase capacity.

 

From there we may have options for a bi-modal train to carry on to Derby and Sheffield - but capacity on that line is likely to be an issue too. The next stage of HS2 to the east needs prioritsing over the already elrectrified west.

 

Until then we have to wait for the bi-modal trains to arrive while pushing ever more trains down the congested tracks. Those tracks could take longer trains, so as an example two 5 coach Meridians could be lnked in a 10 coach pair and run half as often. If more passengers are to be carried many options need to be considered.

 

London commuters on many routes are used to overcrowded trains of up to 12 coaches running every 5 or 6 minutes. That in itself creates more demand and we need to understand the pressures that creates in an even more congested area than our own.

 

In the regions there are many dozens of smaller schemes that could materially improve journey experiences. In Sheffield the congestion whereby we have only two tracks in and out of our principal station should have been tackled decades ago - but far from that they reduced the tracks from 4 to 2 from Dore & Totley and Tesco's were allowed to build a superstore on part of that trackbed!

 

The two new platforms for Manchester Piccadilly seem to have been delayed or cancelled and that impacts on the service from Sheffield. The Hope Valley Capacity Scheme to redouble the line through Dore & Totkey is bogged in the mire, that also including two passing loops to keep slow moving freight trains out of the way of passenger services. A subtle irony of that is that the stone and cement trains are often taking materials to help the developments in the London area, including work on Crossrail. The recent Sunday Times article showed Trans Pennine Express to have the most late trains of any operator. Many of those delays are caused by those stone trains blocking the line, some where the planned Dore loop is intended to go! Line speed improvements on the Hope Valley line also seem to be being delayed.

 

These are just a few examples; it goes a lot further than HS2 and the bi-modal v electric debate.

 

No, I'm no apologist for Grayling, far from it, but reality has also to be faced when trying to tackle these issues.

Edited August 9, 2017 by 1978
spelling!

[Cyclone 10]

How have you defined 'regional cities' to include Leeds and not Sheffield?

[1978 14]

How have you defined 'regional cities' to include Leeds and not Sheffield?

 

I'm afraid I have, and defining Newcastle over Sunderland, and Manchester over Liverpool would raise similar hackles there as well. However, that's how those in London see it, and that's what counts in the corridors of power! Having lived outside Sheffield (not in London) it's easier to see that, and it's difficult to know how the perception can be quickly changed.

 

The way the rest of Yorkshire seems to be snubbing Sheffield to try and form a greater Yorkshire region centred on Leeds may be a pointer we need to heed very carefully.

Edited August 9, 2017 by 1978

[alchemist 37]

Well wouldn't you know, Government caught bending the truth again.

 

Bending?? That was outright LYING!!!

 

Then bearing in ind that the government dont give a toss about the north are we surprised?

 

Still, at least theres going to be ANOTHER railway in London, so THATS OK

 

---------- Post added 09-08-2017 at 10:15 ----------

 

I'm afraid I have, and defining Newcastle over Sunderland, and Manchester over Liverpool would raise similar hackles there as well. However, that's how those in London see it, and that's what counts in the corridors of power! Having lived outside Sheffield (not in London) it's easier to see that, and it's difficult to know how the perception can be quickly changed.

 

The way the rest of Yorkshire seems to be snubbing Sheffield to try and form a greater Yorkshire region centred on Leeds may be a pointer we need to heed very carefully.

 

Sheffield are rapidly getting a reputation of the one who comes along and ****s on everyones cornflakes. Would YOU want to work with someone like that?

[pss60 10]

Like it or not, the power of capital cites is usually far greater than the rest of the country. Paris, Madrid, Oslo, Berlin all get attention before the regions. From time to time that's partially offset and some cash comes out, but again it will tend to go to regional cities, like Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds and Newcastle.

 

HS2 will get as far as Birmingham. Beyond that it's all to play for. Any or all of the rest can still be pulled. In the meantime we have a period when developments south of Kettering (mostly for the benefit of London commuters) make that first part of HS2 to Birmingham vital to increase capacity.

 

From there we may have options for a bi-modal train to carry on to Derby and Sheffield - but capacity on that line is likely to be an issue too. The next stage of HS2 to the east needs prioritsing over the already elrectrified west.

 

Until then we have to wait for the bi-modal trains to arrive while pushing ever more trains down the congested tracks. Those tracks could take longer trains, so as an example two 5 coach Meridians could be lnked in a 10 coach pair and run half as often. If more passengers are to be carried many options need to be considered.

 

London commuters on many routes are used to overcrowded trains of up to 12 coaches running every 5 or 6 minutes. That in itself creates more demand and we need to understand the pressures that creates in an even more congested area than our own.

 

In the regions there are many dozens of smaller schemes that could materially improve journey experiences. In Sheffield the congestion whereby we have only two tracks in and out of our principal station should have been tackled decades ago - but far from that they reduced the tracks from 4 to 2 from Dore & Totley and Tesco's were allowed to build a superstore on part of that trackbed!

 

The two new platforms for Manchester Piccadilly seem to have been delayed or cancelled and that impacts on the service from Sheffield. The Hope Valley Capacity Scheme to redouble the line through Dore & Totkey is bogged in the mire, that also including two passing loops to keep slow moving freight trains out of the way of passenger services. A subtle irony of that is that the stone and cement trains are often taking materials to help the developments in the London area, including work on Crossrail. The recent Sunday Times article showed Trans Pennine Express to have the most late trains of any operator. Many of those delays are caused by those stone trains blocking the line, some where the planned Dore loop is intended to go! Line speed improvements on the Hope Valley line also seem to be being delayed.

 

These are just a few examples; it goes a lot further than HS2 and the bi-modal v electric debate.

 

No, I'm no apologist for Grayling, far from it, but reality has also to be faced when trying to tackle these issues.

Only in this country could a town the size of Kings Lynn be deemed more important than a city the size and population of Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield. In case anyone hasn't noticed, the line from London to Kings Lynn is electrified throughout, while Derby, Nottingham, Leicester and Sheffield have all been snubbed. This state of affairs wouldn't happen anywhere else in Europe. You are an apologist for Grayling, and it is because of people like yourself that much of the North gets shafted.

[1978 14]

Kings Lynn is one of the anomolies you get with the railways set up in the stop/start/go back financial way they have been, and currently still are!

 

Before WW1 the North Eastern Railway started overhead electrification of their freight line from Shildon with the intention of it being a pilot for East Coast malnline eletrification. That war, and then grouping in 1923 put paid to that. The LNER started planning it's own electrification before WW2 including the Woodhead tunnels providing a full passenger service from Victoria to Manchester, but it was incompatible with the standard introduced elsewhere, so had to go. On Tyneside the North Eastern electrified the coastal lines with 3rd rail around 1904 but British Railways replaced them with diesel units at a lesser frequency.

 

The Southern at least got standardisation right with their 3rd rail system, but that is no longer considered suitable for new lines and modern electrification requires overhead equipment.

 

Eletrification from Cambridge through Ely to Kings Lynn slipped through a window of opportunity in the late 1980s but was relatively cheap to complete due to the flat rural terrain. It also brought the benefits of being able to run all trains straight into Kings Cross on electrified tracks.

 

The window of opportunity lottery is part of our problem. Tyne & Wear Metro found a window. The Manchester Metro also found ways in. The Nottingham trams have, as did Supertram and the tram/train experiment, but to a much lesser extent.

 

The Midland mainline used to compete with the Great Central, but the east and west coast mainlines were always the most competitive for speed. When HSTs were first introduced to Bristol and Cardiff in 1976 they were able to utilise the fast routes laid down by Brunel originally on 7 foot gauge. The east coast mainline got them next because it has long stretches of track where the speed can be well utilised. They were supplanting the Deltics by 1978-9. Cross Country also got HSTs in 1982 before the Midland Mainline finally got them in 1983.

 

The line wasn't snubbed, although it was certainly seen that way at the time. Line speeds were still limited to 100 mph and haven't been improved to 125 for most of the route since. The shortness of the journey compared with the other routes using them was also a factor.

 

The present situation has the same problems. The Midland mainline route doesn't have enough long straight stretches to fully utilise speed. The number of bridges, tunnels, junctions and other lineside equipment makes electrification a lot more difficult than on a simple and quiet line like that to Kings Lynn, so it costs more per mile, and a lot of disruption. That can't be denied.

 

This thread is about HS2. By building a brand new line disruption to existing services is minimised - although it won't be to the places it has to pass through, of course. In theory it could even be cheaper mile for mile than electrifying existing tracks, but that's not the point. By building a brand new line we get speed and extra capacity, the capacity being what's needed most.

 

My concern is firstly to ensure that HS2 gets to Yorkshire and beyond up the east side at all. Getting it to the West Midlands will be a start, but my fear is that it may stop there, and electric trains from Euston will continue on existing electrified lines towards Manchester and Glasgow. Phases 2a and 2b are not yet guaranteed (nor is Crossrail 2) although 2a to Crewe must surely go ahead.

 

I'd contend that 2b towards Yorkshire shoud be prioritised over the section towards Manchester whether another pause gets suggested or not. Manchester will fight very hard to ensure their side is done whatever the situation. I don't trust the potiticians one bit, for when the chips are down they'll cut where it's least hassle all round. We need to ensure the east side of 2b is promoted as strongly as possible, making the case that it is necessary to link up the East Midlands, Yorkshire and the North East with electric high speed tracks for as far as possible.

 

However, this thread is not just about HS2 but HS2 to Sheffield city centre. Some think we've won on that. I beg to differ as I don't think we have, and certainly not yet. Until the contracts are being issued I'll not believe it will happen and we need to keep up the pressure.

 

I've previously tried to draw attention to the works that are already needed to improve existing services in this area. There is no detailed plan that I'm aware of as to how we can squeeze HS2 trains from Chesterfield into Sheffield on the existing tracks alongside the number of conventional trains that are already planned to run on them. Ideally we should be relaying the previously removed second pair of tracks from Dore & Totley into Sheffield. The Tesco's blockage is an issue for that. Platforms at Sheffield are a further headache. The twin track northern end bottleneck is another major issue and the costs to right them all will be high.

 

Ideally a new set of platforms tunnelled under Park Hlll and taking new lines past the north end bottleneck might be needed, but can we see the cost of that being easily agreed?

 

I don't think we've won on this one yet. By moving away from Meadowhall we may, if we're not very careful, end up with nothing. The spur is vulnerable to being deferred in a pause or stop phase, something to come back to sometime, never?

 

We may have shot ourselves in the foot. I hope I'm soon proved wrong.

[pss60 10]

Kings Lynn is one of the anomolies you get with the railways set up in the stop/start/go back financial way they have been, and currently still are!

 

Before WW1 the North Eastern Railway started overhead electrification of their freight line from Shildon with the intention of it being a pilot for East Coast malnline eletrification. That war, and then grouping in 1923 put paid to that. The LNER started planning it's own electrification before WW2 including the Woodhead tunnels providing a full passenger service from Victoria to Manchester, but it was incompatible with the standard introduced elsewhere, so had to go. On Tyneside the North Eastern electrified the coastal lines with 3rd rail around 1904 but British Railways replaced them with diesel units at a lesser frequency.

 

The Southern at least got standardisation right with their 3rd rail system, but that is no longer considered suitable for new lines and modern electrification requires overhead equipment.

 

Eletrification from Cambridge through Ely to Kings Lynn slipped through a window of opportunity in the late 1980s but was relatively cheap to complete due to the flat rural terrain. It also brought the benefits of being able to run all trains straight into Kings Cross on electrified tracks.

 

The window of opportunity lottery is part of our problem. Tyne & Wear Metro found a window. The Manchester Metro also found ways in. The Nottingham trams have, as did Supertram and the tram/train experiment, but to a much lesser extent.

 

The Midland mainline used to compete with the Great Central, but the east and west coast mainlines were always the most competitive for speed. When HSTs were first introduced to Bristol and Cardiff in 1976 they were able to utilise the fast routes laid down by Brunel originally on 7 foot gauge. The east coast mainline got them next because it has long stretches of track where the speed can be well utilised. They were supplanting the Deltics by 1978-9. Cross Country also got HSTs in 1982 before the Midland Mainline finally got them in 1983.

 

The line wasn't snubbed, although it was certainly seen that way at the time. Line speeds were still limited to 100 mph and haven't been improved to 125 for most of the route since. The shortness of the journey compared with the other routes using them was also a factor.

 

The present situation has the same problems. The Midland mainline route doesn't have enough long straight stretches to fully utilise speed. The number of bridges, tunnels, junctions and other lineside equipment makes electrification a lot more difficult than on a simple and quiet line like that to Kings Lynn, so it costs more per mile, and a lot of disruption. That can't be denied.

 

This thread is about HS2. By building a brand new line disruption to existing services is minimised - although it won't be to the places it has to pass through, of course. In theory it could even be cheaper mile for mile than electrifying existing tracks, but that's not the point. By building a brand new line we get speed and extra capacity, the capacity being what's needed most.

 

My concern is firstly to ensure that HS2 gets to Yorkshire and beyond up the east side at all. Getting it to the West Midlands will be a start, but my fear is that it may stop there, and electric trains from Euston will continue on existing electrified lines towards Manchester and Glasgow. Phases 2a and 2b are not yet guaranteed (nor is Crossrail 2) although 2a to Crewe must surely go ahead.

 

I'd contend that 2b towards Yorkshire shoud be prioritised over the section towards Manchester whether another pause gets suggested or not. Manchester will fight very hard to ensure their side is done whatever the situation. I don't trust the potiticians one bit, for when the chips are down they'll cut where it's least hassle all round. We need to ensure the east side of 2b is promoted as strongly as possible, making the case that it is necessary to link up the East Midlands, Yorkshire and the North East with electric high speed tracks for as far as possible.

 

However, this thread is not just about HS2 but HS2 to Sheffield city centre. Some think we've won on that. I beg to differ as I don't think we have, and certainly not yet. Until the contracts are being issued I'll not believe it will happen and we need to keep up the pressure.

 

I've previously tried to draw attention to the works that are already needed to improve existing services in this area. There is no detailed plan that I'm aware of as to how we can squeeze HS2 trains from Chesterfield into Sheffield on the existing tracks alongside the number of conventional trains that are already planned to run on them. Ideally we should be relaying the previously removed second pair of tracks from Dore & Totley into Sheffield. The Tesco's blockage is an issue for that. Platforms at Sheffield are a further headache. The twin track northern end bottleneck is another major issue and the costs to right them all will be high.

 

Ideally a new set of platforms tunnelled under Park Hlll and taking new lines past the north end bottleneck might be needed, but can we see the cost of that being easily agreed?

 

I don't think we've won on this one yet. By moving away from Meadowhall we may, if we're not very careful, end up with nothing. The spur is vulnerable to being deferred in a pause or stop phase, something to come back to sometime, never?

 

We may have shot ourselves in the foot. I hope I'm soon proved wrong.

Kings Lynn seems to be one of an awful lot of anomalies. Corby is obviously another. Face facts, this area, plus the East Midlands, has been double-crossed by the most disingenuous set of double-dealing wide boys and girls we've seen in our lifetimes, namely this Government. It was promised electrification for years, then had it withdrawn by truncating it to Corby, once the General Election and stitch-up with the DUP was out of the way. You are excusing this worst kind of double-dealing mendacity and are sticking up for liars, and one of the few things worse than a liar is one who defends them.

Edited August 10, 2017 by pss60

[alchemist 37]

Only in this country could a town the size of Kings Lynn be deemed more important than a city the size and population of Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield. In case anyone hasn't noticed, the line from London to Kings Lynn is electrified throughout, while Derby, Nottingham, Leicester and Sheffield have all been snubbed. This state of affairs wouldn't happen anywhere else in Europe. You are an apologist for Grayling, and it is because of people like yourself that much of the North gets shafted.

 

I think you may find that having Sandringham close by helps

[freddie65 10]

I wonder if the commuters in Sheffield realise what a complete disaster HS2 will now be for Sheffield area?

 

The decision by Sheffield Council to lobby for a station at Victoria has well and truly back fired.

 

The poor folk of Sheffield will now have to endure 6 years of horrendous disruption at Sheffield Midland station whilst the station is reconfigured to accept HS2 trains. This will not only affect rail passengers, but road and tram users will also suffer as the tram and road networks around Sheffield station will need to be reconfigured.

 

Even worse, commuters who use local services will find that their train journey's will be longer to make way for HS2 as existing services will be cut and delayed, once the HS2 trains are running on the existing Midland line.

 

And all this could have been avoided if Sheffield Council had accepted the Meadowhall proposal, which would not have impacted one bit on existing rail services, or Sheffield Midland station.

 

Thank you Julie Dore!

Edited September 15, 2017 by freddie65

[Funky_Gibbon 42]

You do realise that the disruption of building a second, larger viaduct at Meadowhall for HS2 would have caused far worse disruption right? Maybe not to rail users, which you seem to be, but certainly for the many many tens of thousands of car commuters that go through the area each day. That area already gridlocks regularly, especially from now until January, and the jams can be impressively long.

 

So wherever it went there was going to be disruption.

[muddycoffee 10]

Freddie65, what would you rather do? New rail infrastructure of any significance always causes inconvenience.

But it is worth it in the long run.

When the Victorians built the original Midland railway viaduct along the sheaf valley they had to bulldoze 1000 brand new homes.

That's my definition of inconvenience not this!

[Zarniwoop 10]

It's not certain how old this document is. The full size hs2 trains would need significant changes as they are twice as long and wider than existing trains. But, we won't be getting these, we are getting classic compatibles which as the name implies are the same size as existing trains albeit a bit longer at 200m. Hs2 have said that not much work will be needed at midland to use classic compatibles.