Campaign grows to switch the building of HS2 station to Sheffield city

[alchemist 37]

14 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Absolutely agree. It was doomed from the moment our council insisted on it being city centre based.

SCC had an obsession, if not still does, of insisting that anything coming to Sheffield should be in the city centre.  Remember the IKEA fiasco??  Whilst at the same time complaining about the amount of traffic coming into the city!!!!

[Annie Bynnol 612]

3 hours ago, HeHasRisen said:

Really cant agree with that last paragraph. Surely the regular train to Manchester Piccadilly, along with a cross platform connection to the Airport train, is much easier than faffing around switching between trains and buses.

 

I don't think there is much difference on the outward leg as you are fresh,  on the train  you planned to be from Sheffield and, there are plenty of cross platform connections at Piccadilly.

Arriving at EMA  late/on time/early  gives me a choice of  3 buses per hour to Derby and 4 less crowded trains ph to Sheffield all for £6 70. 

Arriving in Manchester, tired, long walks, crowds, long queues at bags and immi, worrying about advance tickets and re booking, platform 13/14 at Piccadilly is a battle and so is getting a seat. I usually go for the stopper off the furthest platform.

That said there is rarely a choice as the availability of destinations usually dictates.

 

 

[BigAl1 143]

12 minutes ago, Annie Bynnol said:

 

I don't think there is much difference on the outward leg as you are fresh,  on the train  you planned to be from Sheffield and, there are plenty of cross platform connections at Piccadilly.

Arriving at EMA  late/on time/early  gives me a choice of  3 buses per hour to Derby and 4 less crowded trains ph to Sheffield all for £6 70. 

Arriving in Manchester, tired, long walks, crowds, long queues at bags and immi, worrying about advance tickets and re booking, platform 13/14 at Piccadilly is a battle and so is getting a seat. I usually go for the stopper off the furthest platform.

That said there is rarely a choice as the availability of destinations usually dictates.

 

 

I thought we were going to get longer trains on the Pennines route hence less overcrowding.
 

 

I don’t get the bit about advance tickets surely there is no difference between the requirements in catching the train in Derby or Manchester indeed at Manchester I would argue it is far better as TPE allow you to use your ticket on a later train if your flight is delayed which as far as I know you can not do at Derby with Cross country or EML

[Annie Bynnol 612]

1 hour ago, BigAl1 said:

Annie said: 

"HS2 will come to Sheffield, meaning a trip to or from London will take just one hour 27 minutes – precisely the same as under the old HS2 plans".

(The Midland Main Line will be )"electrified and expanded”.

 

Sorry Andy don't buy this I do not see how they will be able to maintain the speed on the missing section between East Midlands and Sheffield compared to the HS2 line,  electrification  and remodeling included.  Can not see any of it being upgraded to anywhere near 140mph let alone to 205mph on the dedicated HS2 line. . yes quicker than today but not anywhere near the same time than the old HS2 idea

 

Journey times between London and Sheffield would depend on the HS2 version

Slowest - the current MML and shortest distance.

next -electrified MML.

next - HS2 final route via Clay Cross and Chesterfield and longest distance. 

next -HS2 Governments 2nd  choice to Victoria.

Fastest - HS2  Governments 1st choice to Meadowhall.

 

The distances of all the HS2 routes are significantly longer than the MML so the gains of faster trains was reduced.

 

The Government announced that they would start electrification of the MML  between Kettering and Market Harborough-(66 miles from Sheffield) but they already have as the feeder from the National Grid is just south of Market Harborough. 

This will save the Government the embarrassment of having built the longest extension lead in the world as no trains were planned to use it.

 

[Annie Bynnol 612]

38 minutes ago, BigAl1 said:

I thought we were going to get longer trains on the Pennines route hence less overcrowding.
 

 

I don’t get the bit about advance tickets surely there is no difference between the requirements in catching the train in Derby or Manchester indeed at Manchester I would argue it is far better as TPE allow you to use your ticket on a later train if your flight is delayed which as far as I know you can not do at Derby with Cross country or EML

Most but not all of the trains are longer and the stoppers are very much newer.

Timekeeping on the route via Stockport is amongst the worst in the country due to the train congestion at Piccadilly(the main reason for removing the Airport trains).

 

Derby to Sheffield tickets are always cheaper anyway and with a Derbyshire Wayfarer at £6 70  for over 60s(others £13. 40) from airport to Sheffield and with the flexibility of walking out of the terminal and buying the ticket on the bus. I don't have to wait for my booked  train if I am early or re-book advance ticket at the ticket office at Manchester Airport-long queues at times. These type of tickets are only available  on the once an hour TPE trains from Piccadilly.

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Annie Bynnol

[Cyclecar 24]

So how do they fit overhead wires into the Dronfield tunnel?

 

Physics  can be a nuisance. 

[Bargepole23 337]

2 minutes ago, Cyclecar said:

So how do they fit overhead wires into the Dronfield tunnel?

 

Physics  can be a nuisance. 

Engineering fixes all.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

14 minutes ago, Cyclecar said:

So how do they fit overhead wires into the Dronfield tunnel?

 

Physics  can be a nuisance. 

Bradway tunnel  was refurbished in 2008.

There are ways to solve this problem e.g. lower the track, use strip instead of wire or drop the pantograph and use the battery. The MML trains will be bi-modes.

 

The biggest problem is Leicester station

Edited November 18, 2021 by Annie Bynnol

[BigAl1 143]

35 minutes ago, Annie Bynnol said:

Most but not all of the trains are longer and the stoppers are very much newer.

Timekeeping on the route via Stockport is amongst the worst in the country due to the train congestion at Piccadilly(the main reason for removing the Airport trains).

 

Derby to Sheffield tickets are always cheaper anyway and with a Derbyshire Wayfarer at £6 70  for over 60s(others £13. 40) from airport to Sheffield and with the flexibility of walking out of the terminal and buying the ticket on the bus. I don't have to wait for my booked  train if I am early or re-book advance ticket at the ticket office at Manchester Airport-long queues at times. These type of tickets are only available  on the once an hour TPE trains from Piccadilly.

 

 

 

You just show the ticket to the train conductor no need to rebook it . Train conductors have always been very helpful indeed one kindly let me travel on the earlier train once. Advance tickets to Manchester airport are often cheaper than the £13.40 ticket to Derby.

 

anyway for me East Midlands has never been an option for my travels to SEA and Africa

[Annie Bynnol 612]

1 hour ago, BigAl1 said:

You just show the ticket to the train conductor no need to rebook it . Train conductors have always been very helpful indeed one kindly let me travel on the earlier train once. Advance tickets to Manchester airport are often cheaper than the £13.40 ticket to Derby.

 

anyway for me East Midlands has never been an option for my travels to SEA and Africa

They turned us back at the barrier, so you must have been lucky.

If over 66 you can get to East Midlands for £3 15 for an Advance SNR from Derby to Sheffield. 

 

Sadly the X57 is no longer going to Manchester Airport or anywhere after Jan 9th

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Annie Bynnol

[Annie Bynnol 612]

 Below are all the relevant references to Sheffield in the Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands and Hope Valley

Cut, Copy Paste

 

Sheffield London and Birmingham

"It fully electrifies, modernises and upgrades two existing diesel main lines, the Midland Main Line from London to Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield".

"We will complete the electrification of the Midland Main Line, allowing high speed journeys from London to Chesterfield and Sheffield in the same times to those originally proposed by HS2, decarbonising the railway, and bringing a long overdue improvement to passenger services".

"We will build HS2 from the West Midlands to East Midlands Parkway10 (HS2 East)… about six miles southwest of Nottingham, on the route and line speed as previously planned (East Midlands Parkway is around 3 miles from the previously proposed Toton station site). From here, HS2 trains will continue directly to Nottingham, Derby, Chesterfield, and Sheffield on the upgraded and electrified Midland Main Line."

"HS2 trains will run from London to Sheffield in 87 minutes, the same as under the original HS2 plans.

"We will complete planned upgrades on the Hope Valley Line… between Manchester and Sheffield, which removes a key bottleneck, and makes improved provision for freight trains and, in the longer term, could help facilitate a 3rd fast Sheffield to Manchester service each hour."

"...deliver electrification of the MML, with the potential to continue further north of Sheffield over a network that currently has many diesel trains, contributing to our decarbonisation targets and commitments"

"...options which attempt to serve Leeds and Sheffield on a single new line from Manchester meeting the HS2 Eastern Leg in a delta junction should not be pursued."

 

Hope Valley and Manchester

"The Government agrees with Transport for the North that any further future improvements to Manchester–Sheffield would best be based on an upgrade and electrification of the existing Hope Valley Line. 109 Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

3.91 The Hope Valley route has also been identified as a potential candidate for electrification by the Traction Decarbonisation Network Strategy. Moving heavily loaded freight trains using electric traction would enable journey times to be reduced and make best use of the available network capacity. Work by Network Rail has shown that – if combined with a connection to the HS2 station at Piccadilly – electrification and upgrade of the existing Hope Valley line between Manchester and Sheffield could give a journey time of between 30 and 35 minutes and support up to four trains per hour (2 via Marple and 2 via Stockport). The scope of interventions that need to be delivered within the Peak District National Park will need careful design to ensure environmental impacts are mitigated and reduced as far as possible.

3.92 The main alternatives that have been considered are: • a new route from Manchester to the HS2 Eastern Leg, capable of serving both Leeds and Sheffield; this has been rejected for the reasons set out in paragraph 2.28 above; and a new alignment focussed on Sheffield to Manchester; this was rejected as likely to have a poor business case and unacceptable impacts on the Peak District National Park.

3.93 Works to improve the Hope Valley line are already underway, including line speed and capacity works, the removal of a bottleneck at Dore, and provision of a freight loop at Bamford. These works could help facilitate a possible future third fast Sheffield to Manchester service each hour.

3.94 Network Rail’s capacity analysis suggests that three NPR trains per hour between Manchester and Sheffield can be operated via the Hope Valley Line with trains continuing to Stockport through targeted investment, using the existing Network Rail station at Manchester Piccadilly. This would likely require the doubling of the Hazel Grove chord (to enable three trains to be evenly spaced, around every 20 minutes) and restoration of a third line between Dore and Sheffield, although more detailed analysis is needed to confirm this. The infrastructure required on the Hope Valley route itself is potentially similar if four fast NPR trains are planned. However, operating a fourth train via Stockport into the existing Piccadilly station would require either a major package of interventions on the existing railway or a reduction in other services in the Manchester area.

3.95 The feasibility of a connection from the Hope Valley line to the HS2 station at Manchester Piccadilly has also been explored. This could use a section of the Marple Line, and then join the Leeds approach line to the new Manchester Piccadilly station. Strategically, this would have benefits in terms of faster journey times from Sheffield to Manchester, Manchester Airport, Warrington and Liverpool, and could allow a 4tph fast service between Sheffield and Manchester: two via Stockport and two via the Marple route. This would also mean some long-distance NPR services would not need to use the Castlefield corridor. However, costs for the initial designs of the Marple connector appear high, raising challenges in terms of affordability and value for money; and there are potential conflicts with Transport for Greater Manchester’s longerterm ambitions to extend Metrolink services onto the Marple line.

3.96 Recent work has suggested there may be potential to significantly reduce the cost of options so far considered. Any future development work will therefore focus on an upgrade of the Hope Valley route, including capacity and 111 Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands line speed improvements, and route electrification; and an assessment of whether there is a case for moving from three to four trains per hour taking account of demand, costs, and service options at the Manchester end of the corridor. As noted above, the Government has identified a core pipeline of schemes and any further schemes will be subject to affordability, delivering commitments on time and to budget, and complementary investments being made.

 

Dates

By around 2030  passengers could see:

Electrification of the remaining sections of the Midland Main Line to Leicester, Nottingham, Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield, bringing forward decarbonisation of existing diesel services, laying the ground for future high speed rail services to Nottingham, Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield, and ensuring that key routes to the East Midlands and South Yorkshire will be contributing to achieving net zero.

Completion of existing work on Sheffield to Manchester.

 

By the early-mid 2040s, passengers could see:

The new high speed line connecting the West Midlands to the East Midlands, providing improved connectivity to Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield and Sheffield. The new line would reduce journey times between London and Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield, as well as Birmingham and Nottingham, and free up capacity on the Midland Main Line south of East Midlands Parkway."

[mafya 248]

On 18/02/2016 at 09:34, canalforall said:

Just I did hear in ITV news that a debate is going to be today if the station should be in the Meadowhall area or city centre.I wonder who finally will decide to stop this HS2 nonsense. I think it was said in other news last week that Sheffield is one of the most polluted cities in UK and now somebody think to build new station and bring more cars to the centre. Another stupidity with this multi millions project. There are no money for NHS, police, etc in the budget but how much have been spend already for this project?

Don’t worry, by the time it’s completed if ever then all cars will be electric by then.