Campaign grows to switch the building of HS2 station to Sheffield city

[tinfoilhat 11]

45 minutes ago, nightrider said:

most of our MP's are labour round here aren't they?

 

The tories tend to give funding only to those who vote for them, so if you think the tories would win the next GE its logical to vote for them if you want infrastructure funding.

Chesterfield (Tory MP and now a minister of something) was going to get a lovely HS2 maintainance depot and now aren't. I recall it promised thousands of new  engineering jobs which presumably now won't happen.

 

EDIT - FOR MY SINS THE ABOVE IS WRONG!!

 

North East Derbyshire MP is Tory, chesterfield is Labour!!!! My MP has been banging on about it though. Mia culpa.

Edited November 16, 2021 by tinfoilhat

[Jeffrey Shaw 90]

37 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

To be fair,  Sheffield City Council are largely to blame for not only Sheffield but also South Yorkshire not being included.

   HS2's 2014 plan was to build the South Yorkshire Station at Meadowhall..

 

I thought that the original proposal was for a new station served by the Parkway or else a little off it.

When was Meadowhall in the frame? A line running from the South/Midlands to there would have the same access route problems as did Sheffield Station (ne 'Midland') itself.

[BigAl1 143]

1 hour ago, nightrider said:

most of our MP's are labour round here aren't they?

 

The tories tend to give funding only to those who vote for them, so if you think the tories would win the next GE its logical to vote for them if you want infrastructure funding.

So the proposed new line to stocksbridge is because there is a Tory MP.

 

 

[Annie Bynnol 612]

37 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

To be fair,  Sheffield City Council are largely to blame for not only Sheffield but also South Yorkshire not being included.

   HS2's 2014 plan was to build the South Yorkshire Station at Meadowhall... Barnsley, Rotherham and Doncaster were all in favour as was Sheffield Chamber of Commerce and the region's MP's,  whether you agree with HS2 in principle or not I think it's fair to say that location had the best connectivity any where in the region, but Julie Dore lobbied heavily against Meadowhall, spending a lot of money to do so,  she wanted the HS2 station to be at Victoria, to fit in with SCC's Grey to Green plan.  Sir David Higgins ( Chair of HS2) came out publicly to warn HS2 were not building a railway that went in and out of cities as it would lower the speeds and increase journey times.   

    HS2 were aware the budget was spiralling out of control and took the opportunity to save money ( Meadowhall Station would have been very expensive) and moved the route to a cheaper one and threw a few red herrings out about Parkway Station's elsewhere in South Yorkshire to keep the politicians in the region onside. High speed rail for Sheffield was lost at that point.

Not correct.

Of the several routes considered two were selected for detailed consideration.

1 Toton(the station for Nottingham/ Derby)  , Beighton, Sheffield Victoria, Chapletown, Leeds

2 Toton, Beighton, Meadowhall. Chapletown, Leeds

 

The Victoria option was significantly slower and more expensive because of the tunnel needed between Victoria and Chapletown.

Sheffield saw the Victoria route as beneficial to the re-development of that area of our City.

The Government chose the Meadowhall option because of cost and a very detailed route was mapped out.

The Treasury objected and a review was initiated to slash costs

The review proposed a new Route:

3 Toton, Clay Cross, Chesterfield terminating at Sheffield and Toton to Leeds(through Mexborough)

.

It is natural for our Council to promote a route that would bring most benefit to Sheffield people.

Decisions made at Government level had nothing to  do with the Councils support of the Victoria option.

It has always been about money. 

 

[AndrewC 306]

48 minutes ago, Jeffrey Shaw said:

I thought that the original proposal was for a new station served by the Parkway or else a little off it.

When was Meadowhall in the frame? A line running from the South/Midlands to there would have the same access route problems as did Sheffield Station (ne 'Midland') itself.

The very first HS2 plans were for a station at Meadowhall, parallel with Tinsley Viaduct. The line would have come up from south via Waverley, then to the north by a tunnel from somewhere around Ecclesfield, under Hoyland to the south side of Barnsley (or there or thereabouts).

 

That was the original plan whilst the council called for it to be moved to Victoria. There was also around that time a vague suggestion that a 'city-centre' station around Nunnery Sq could be an option, which might be the Parkway option you're thinking of.

[Findlay 116]

The Meadowhall, Sheffield 9 option was the most practical.

I can see why Sheffield was pulled when the local Ayatollahs interfered with the plans.

Going into Sheffield itself was fraught with problems which would have been more expensive and taken years longer.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

49 minutes ago, Jeffrey Shaw said:

I thought that the original proposal was for a new station served by the Parkway or else a little off it.

When was Meadowhall in the frame? A line running from the South/Midlands to there would have the same access route problems as did Sheffield Station (ne 'Midland') itself.

 

The proposal for a "... new station served by the Parkway..." is the Victoria route and lost to Meadowhall in the final round.

 

The old Victoria station footprint would have been far too short for the HS2 trains planned for and the platforms would have stretched from Nunnery tram depot to the old station. It was the opportunity to develop this area that prompted the Council to support this route against Meadowhall.

The new Meadowhall station would be parallel to the Tinsley Viaduct crossing over the present Meadowhall station, this became the Government's first favoured route and all the planning went into this route and continued to be until 2018.

This route would have been on an all new route from Birmingham to Leeds east of the MML coming up through Beighton and the old Tinsley Marshaling Yard

When a cost saving exercise changed the route to Leeds eastward, a connection was needed between the new line and the MML near Clay Cross and then onto Chesterfield and terminating at Sheffield Midland.

 

Sheffield support for Victoria over Meadowhall made absolutely no difference to the Treasury deciding to save save £billions by sending the HS2 further east.

Most observers at this point saw this as the beginning of the end for the Eastern arm of the HS2 as now there would be no high speed services to the  centres of Leicester(in the original brief), Derby, Nottingham or Sheffield.

 

However it clarifies which project will pay for MML electrification between these cities to London and the other bits to Birmingham and Leeds and a great deal closer.

 

 

 

 

[hackey lad 3,949]

2 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

To be fair,  Sheffield City Council are largely to blame for not only Sheffield but also South Yorkshire not being included.

   HS2's 2014 plan was to build the South Yorkshire Station at Meadowhall... Barnsley, Rotherham and Doncaster were all in favour as was Sheffield Chamber of Commerce and the region's MP's,  whether you agree with HS2 in principle or not I think it's fair to say that location had the best connectivity any where in the region, but Julie Dore lobbied heavily against Meadowhall, spending a lot of money to do so,  she wanted the HS2 station to be at Victoria, to fit in with SCC's Grey to Green plan.  Sir David Higgins ( Chair of HS2) came out publicly to warn HS2 were not building a railway that went in and out of cities as it would lower the speeds and increase journey times.   

    HS2 were aware the budget was spiralling out of control and took the opportunity to save money ( Meadowhall Station would have been very expensive) and moved the route to a cheaper one and threw a few red herrings out about Parkway Station's elsewhere in South Yorkshire to keep the politicians in the region onside. High speed rail for Sheffield was lost at that point.

Good old Julie Dore . Whats she up to nowadays ?

[sadbrewer 20]

2 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

Not correct.

Of the several routes considered two were selected for detailed consideration.

1 Toton(the station for Nottingham/ Derby)  , Beighton, Sheffield Victoria, Chapletown, Leeds

2 Toton, Beighton, Meadowhall. Chapletown, Leeds

 

The Victoria option was significantly slower and more expensive because of the tunnel needed between Victoria and Chapletown.

Sheffield saw the Victoria route as beneficial to the re-development of that area of our City.

The Government chose the Meadowhall option because of cost and a very detailed route was mapped out.

The Treasury objected and a review was initiated to slash costs

The review proposed a new Route:

3 Toton, Clay Cross, Chesterfield terminating at Sheffield and Toton to Leeds(through Mexborough)

.

It is natural for our Council to promote a route that would bring most benefit to Sheffield people.

Decisions made at Government level had nothing to  do with the Councils support of the Victoria option.

It has always been about money. 

 

What I said was absolutely correct, the link to the Grey to Green scheme for Victoria is in SCC's own documents.   SCC ploughed a lot of money into a report, which ,whilst it does extol the virtues of the Victoria option also goes out of it's way to undermine the Meadowhall option. SCC treated HS2 leaders to a £7k  business breakfast without the presence of any other members of SYPTE.

   The simple fact is that Meadowhall had the support of everyone in South Yorkshire...Higgins told SCC that HS2 would not come in at high speed to the City Centre, I can only assume that the SCC  leadership were prepared to gamble.

[Hopman 46]

The proposed station at Sheffield Meadowhall would serve South Yorkshire and is located near the Meadowhall retail complex.

The high speed rail line would be on a viaduct, at approximately the same level as the upper deck of the existing M1 Tinsley viaduct. There would be 4 high speed platforms, which would be arranged as 2 islands. Two additional central tracks would be dedicated fast lines for trains not stopping at the station.

The station entrance and forecourt would be located directly below at street level and the main station building would be about 250m from the Network Rail station at Meadowhall Interchange.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sheffield-meadowhall

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/381967/HS2_Phase_Two_Sheffield_Meadowhall_station_factsheet.pdf

[Annie Bynnol 612]

It is disappointing that there is an assumption in Sheffield that its support of the 'runner up' Victoria plan had anything to do with Government option to withdraw HS2 from Meadowhall let alone what will happen on Thursday.

 

Meadowhall was by far the best option in railway operating terms and customers in a large part of Sheffield and all of South Yorkshire and the potential for connectivity to the North East, East, North Nottinghamshire,  NE Derbyshire, Lincolnshire,  Hull and East Yorkshire.

In eyes of Sheffield Councillors who represent Sheffield  people and their interests,  bringing improved transport links, wealth, prosperity and jobs that the Victoria option would bring gave them little choice but to support the Victoria plan.

 

The Government wanted big savings and ignored the Victoria option and opted for Meadowhall. 

The Government wanted even bigger savings and moved introduced the HS2 route away from Sheffield.

The Government want even bigger savings and cancel all of the eastern  HS2 route.

 

The wishes of a provincial city had absolutely no influence on the Treasury telling the Cabinet how to save  £billions.

 

As to the money spent, Councils in the London and the Midlands spent over £1 million just on legal bills in Court actions against HS2 and millions more in local campaigns.

 

As far as the railway industry and Parliament are concerned Sheffield and the East Midlands cities were never going to have  influence over the eastern HS2. The myth of the SCC failing to influence the decision and in some way wrecking the whole project is nothing more than local politics.

Some would argue that successive Governments have deliberately avoided making decisions on the eastern HS2 route

in order to delay its inevitable cancellation and the political fallout that would result.

 

 

[sadbrewer 20]

2 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

It is disappointing that there is an assumption in Sheffield that its support of the 'runner up' Victoria plan had anything to do with Government option to withdraw HS2 from Meadowhall let alone what will happen on Thursday.

 

Meadowhall was by far the best option in railway operating terms and customers in a large part of Sheffield and all of South Yorkshire and the potential for connectivity to the North East, East, North Nottinghamshire,  NE Derbyshire, Lincolnshire,  Hull and East Yorkshire.

In eyes of Sheffield Councillors who represent Sheffield  people and their interests,  bringing improved transport links, wealth, prosperity and jobs that the Victoria option would bring gave them little choice but to support the Victoria plan.

 

The Government wanted big savings and ignored the Victoria option and opted for Meadowhall. 

The Government wanted even bigger savings and moved introduced the HS2 route away from Sheffield.

The Government want even bigger savings and cancel all of the eastern  HS2 route.

 

The wishes of a provincial city had absolutely no influence on the Treasury telling the Cabinet how to save  £billions.

 

As to the money spent, Councils in the London and the Midlands spent over £1 million just on legal bills in Court actions against HS2 and millions more in local campaigns.

 

As far as the railway industry and Parliament are concerned Sheffield and the East Midlands cities were never going to have  influence over the eastern HS2. The myth of the SCC failing to influence the decision and in some way wrecking the whole project is nothing more than local politics.

Some would argue that successive Governments have deliberately avoided making decisions on the eastern HS2 route

in order to delay its inevitable cancellation and the political fallout that would result.

 

 

It may be disappointing to you to know that people are aware of SCC being largely culpable, but culpable is fact...SCC's commissioned report rubbished the Meadowhall option, even as far as childishly  using an inadequately qualified 'expert' to try and undermine the geological strata of the area...HS2 engineers were clear that they could build anywhere.

   The report was a  £90k fantasy that SCC thought, naively, would bolster their case, but as the largest partner in the Sheffield City region they had a responsibility to their partner Boroughs...the ones who had effectively sacrificed their own interests through SYPTE, to building Supertram in Sheffield alone.

  It's lame to suggest that Sheffield Councillors overall had these altruistic thoughts...of massive job gains, wealth, prosperity and transport links ( Meadowhall was the undoubted site for that option) this seems to be an executive decision of a few Labour party members out of step with the whole of the region, particularly after Higgins told them clearly that trains at High Speed were never coming into the city...only Julie Dore and her immediate cabal did not seem to understand that when Higgins said 'we are building a spine to connect to'... rather than a train that goes into every city...he meant it.

 

Your assertions...

''The Government wanted big savings and ignored the Victoria option and opted for Meadowhall. 

The Government wanted even bigger savings and moved introduced the HS2 route away from Sheffield.

The Government want even bigger savings and cancel all of the eastern  HS2 route.''

...do not hold water, HS2 never seriously considered Victoria, in 2014 the  region's Labour politicians thought they were united around Meadowhall, it came as a shock to them to find that Julie Dore was secretly lobbying against it and putting Victoria as a preference, if I remember rightly Julie Dore wrote to Higgins on an SYPTE letterhead pushing  the Victoria  case without the knowledge of, or signatures of,  the other SYPTE partners.

  I do agree that as the budget spiralled uncontrollably they came under pressure to save money, had all four South Yorkshire partners  supported Meadowhall it would have gone ahead, but once SCC broke ranks in perceived self interest and deliberately undermined the proposal it gave Higgins the opportunity to change the plan.

Edited November 17, 2021 by sadbrewer