Campaign grows to switch the building of HS2 station to Sheffield city

[Planner1 428]

26 minutes ago, dutch said:

They have started to build the Mumbai to pune section. Your excuses why we should use an old fashioned system instead of really moving on are typical comical. Every train goes from point to point. 

 

Ps. They already have HS there.

This says it’s basically a small scale test track in Nevada : https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/small-biz/startups/newsbuzz/travelling-at-600mph-indias-hyperloop-dreams-take-shape-in-the-nevada-desert/articleshow/68057638.cms

 

It’s unproven technology, so represents a big risk.

[ANGELFIRE1 10]

2 hours ago, Planner1 said:

This says it’s basically a small scale test track in Nevada : https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/small-biz/startups/newsbuzz/travelling-at-600mph-indias-hyperloop-dreams-take-shape-in-the-nevada-desert/articleshow/68057638.cms

 

It’s unproven technology, so represents a big risk.

600 mph, Jaysus lets hope it never leaves the tracks or whatever it may run on. It could potentially kill and maim hundreds.

 

"Chris Langer, scheme intelligence manager at CIRAS, looks at all the factors which led to the fatal derailment near Santiago de Compostela nearly three years ago.

On 24 July 2013, a high-speed train travelling at around 190km/h, on its way from Madrid to Ferrol, derailed on a sharp curve three miles from Santiago de Compostela in northern Spain. The train was travelling at twice the permitted speed limit of 80km/h. Eighty people were killed and 144 were injured. The horrifying derailment, subsequent carnage, and twisted carriages, were captured by security video cameras on the route, and widely" broadcast in the media. 

 

And the above train was only doing 118mph. Imagine if you can a 600mph crash.

 

Angel1. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by ANGELFIRE1

[Annie Bynnol 612]

5 hours ago, dutch said:

They have started to build the Mumbai to pune section. Your excuses why we should use an old fashioned system instead of really moving on are typical comical. Every train goes from point to point. 

 

Ps. They already have HS there.

No contracts for any work have been drawn up for a Hyperloop in India.

 

In railway parlance a point to point service means dedicated trains on dedicated track.

Hyperloop also means no stations or junctions along the route.

 

Even India Railways refer to their brand new Vande Bharat Express as Semifast, which at 100mph route speed is a good description.

 

Exaggeration is also a feature of the Politicians that run the railways in India Guardian video where people who know pointed out that a video of the Vande Bharat Express at double speed ie HS was shared by the railways minister.

[dutch 68]

At the moment places like India are developing faster than GB. 

Having said this it was rather funny that India latest HS line opening the train had a collision with a cow. But that didn't stop them from reaching the destination.

[Cyclone 10]

18 hours ago, dutch said:

India seems to be more developed now and started a hyperloop line.

 

HS2 is already out of date. It's better to cancel it and either work on improving existing systems or stop dragging and move on properly instead of always staying behind.

This is entirely wrong.  There is no more advanced, viable, technology available.

There probably will be by the time it's finished, but that's always the case, you can't start a project with technology that doesn't yet exist.

[Jim Hardie 523]

Boris has been in Manchester talking up HS3, or rather the bit of it between that city and Leeds. 

I remember a time more than 50 years ago when Leeds, to my eyes, seemed less prosperous than Sheffield. Then came the M62 and Leeds overtook us big style.

I can see HS3, if it ever happens, serving only to cement Sheffield's status as a northern backwater.

It could be different. A pal of mine reckons HS2 should be scrapped and proper cross Pennine links built to give the northern powerhouse a chance to become reality. Sheffield might even be included, lol.

[Baron99 778]

Didn't John Prescott envisage something similar a decade or so ago?  Direct links right across the North from Liverpool to Hull but once again, Sheffield, being at the southern edge of these plans, seemed to be left out at that time as well. 

 

If you're going to have a high-speed line between Leeds & Manchester a bit of re-jigging, the Leeds line heading slightly south & a line from Sheffield heading slightly north to a connecting junction & you could have 3 cities linked up for probably not much more money? 

 

Sell the high-speed tickets at a premium & use the extra revenue to subsidies the slower trains. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Baron99
Amendments

[tinfoilhat 11]

3 hours ago, Baron99 said:

Didn't John Prescott envisage something similar a decade or so ago?  Direct links right across the North from Liverpool to Hull but once again, Sheffield, being at the southern edge of these plans, seemed to be left out at that time as well. 

 

If you're going to have a high-speed line between Leeds & Manchester a bit of re-jigging, the Leeds line heading slightly south & a line from Sheffield heading slightly north to a connecting junction & you could have 3 cities linked up for probably not much more money? 

 

Sell the high-speed tickets at a premium & use the extra revenue to subsidies the slower trains. 

Nope, Sheffield will miss out completely. I wouldn't be surprised if Sheffield gets bypassed by hs2 yet.

 

Crossrail north will be good for the north in general but don't expect sheffield to benefit in any way.

[Andy C 85]

When talking about such investment in rail infrastructure we are talking about something that has to be planned as a strategy a long time in advance, it isn't something that can just happen overnight. In terms of things that have been announced they need seperating into short term, medium term and long term.

 

Short term: The new Northern rail franchise is beginning to introduce new and cascaded rolling stock and refurbish old rolling stock. It is also introducing more services and some new routes. Similar things are planned for the new East Midlands franchise in the coming years.

 

Medium term: On the Hope Valley line (Sheffield-Manchester) the track through Dore & Totley station is to be doubled, with a second platform and footbridge built, a passing loop is also to be build in the Hope Valley so express passenger trains can overtake freight trains. These two investments will create capacity for a third limited stop train an hour to run between Sheffield and Manchester and also to reduce delays caused by the single track section at Dore. Further upgrades on this line is limited in possibility due to the sensitive nature of the route through the Peak District National Park.

 

There are also other rail projects under way in the North, principally centered around Manchester.

 

Long term:

 

HS2 is designed as Britain's first brand new main line railway in many years. The existing East Coast, Midland and West Coast main lines into London are very close to capacity and forecast to become full in the next few years. Additionally stations such as Manchester Piccadilly, Birmingham New Street, Sheffield and Leeds are struggling to fit any more trains in. HS2 will be built from London Euston to Birmingham and Birmingham to Leeds/Manchester to modern high speed standards so the long distance expresses can move onto the new line freeing up much needed capacity for local trains and freight on the existing lines.

 

The Transpennine main line is Liverpool-Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-Hull/York-Scarborough/Middlesborough/Newcastle. The core from Leeds to Manchester has trains every 15 minutes and is very busy. There have been all sorts of talk of upgrades and electrification but the terrain across the pennines is proving restrictive.

 

HS3 would be a brand new main line from Leeds to Manchester linking the two northern forks of HS2 with trains feeding in from across the north at both ends. Again, taking long distance express traffic off the existing Transpennine main line will allow the existing capacity to be utilised for better local services and freight whilst speeding up longer journeys.

 

Part of the package alongside building HS2 is also investing in and evolving local transport networks to feed into the new high speed stations. For example at the East Midlands station in Toton it is proposed Sheffield-Nottingham trains will be rerouted to serve it and Nottingham trams will be extended to it plus new links to Derby too. There will also of course be a big station car park for passengers, easily accessed from the M1. Investment is also already underway in Birmingham too, with a tram extension planned to the new HS2 station.

 

Of course, whilst HS2 is primarily about rail capacity, the faster journey times also creates economic benefits as the distance you can travel for commuting or business meetings within a tolerable amount of time gets further! Therefore it affects decisions about locating businesses (and therefore employment) and house buying. With more people and economic activity comes more shops, restaurants, hotels and more.

 

Unfortunately Sheffield politicians and the Chamber of Commerce chose to campaign for a station in Sheffield City Centre, rather than on the actual high speed line! The original proposal was for the HS2 line to pass through the Meadowhall area alongside the Tinsley viaduct and stop at Meadowhall Interchange with a big car park by the M1, local train connections, improved tram network feeding in and of course there is a bus station. The high speed line now won't be coming to Sheffield, instead going direct to Leeds, with a select number of "classic compatable" trains leaving the high speed line at Clay Cross and joining the existing Midland Mainline to run at existing speeds through Chesterfield and Dronfield into Sheffield station, possibly then continuing on the existing network towards Wakefield then rejoining the high speed line for the run into Leeds. So Sheffield will have HS2 trains linking Sheffield with Leeds, Birmingham and London, just not on the high speed line when coming through Sheffield. This also presents a problem at Sheffield station though, as there isn't capacity for more trains, so local trains will have to be cut to make room - exactly the opposite of what HS2 is supposed to be achieving! The talk is for local commuter trains in Sheffield to be replaced by tram-trains.

 

Whether Sheffield benefits from HS3 will probably depend on the route it takes, it is highly likely to be north of Sheffield and of course with Sheffield not being directly on HS2 that doesn't help either, but it is still quite feasible that through trains could run from Sheffield onto HS3 - maybe with an upgrade of the Sheffield-Huddersfield line?

 

What we need is instead of parochial, ill informed anti new railway campaigns, we should be driving for how we'd like the new railways to benefit us as a city. Although of course Sheffield is great, why would we ever want to travel anywhere else....

 

And.... 

 

yes, John Prescott outlined a 'Crossrail for the North' vision years ago. George Osbourne announced Northern Powerhouse 5 years ago and now Boris Johnson is announcing it. Plus mumbling something about buses that isn't new.

 

Incidentally Crossrail still isn't running in London. No more Boris buses being built either as far as I'm aware. Didn't Boris do well as mayor.

 

What would be good to be able to replicate in the north though is the way Crossrail was funded - much of the money was contributed by property companies and other businesses that stood to benefit greatly from the new line and stations.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Andy C

[Guest]

On 28/07/2019 at 13:17, Andy C said:

Unfortunately Sheffield politicians and the Chamber of Commerce chose to campaign for a station in Sheffield City Centre, rather than on the actual high speed line! The original proposal was for the HS2 line to pass through the Meadowhall area alongside the Tinsley viaduct and stop at Meadowhall Interchange with a big car park by the M1, local train connections, improved tram network feeding in and of course there is a bus station. The high speed line now won't be coming to Sheffield, instead going direct to Leeds, with a select number of "classic compatable" trains leaving the high speed line at Clay Cross and joining the existing Midland Mainline to run at existing speeds through Chesterfield and Dronfield into Sheffield station, possibly then continuing on the existing network towards Wakefield then rejoining the high speed line for the run into Leeds. So Sheffield will have HS2 trains linking Sheffield with Leeds, Birmingham and London, just not on the high speed line when coming through Sheffield. This also presents a problem at Sheffield station though, as there isn't capacity for more trains, so local trains will have to be cut to make room - exactly the opposite of what HS2 is supposed to be achieving! The talk is for local commuter trains in Sheffield to be replaced by tram-trains.

I still don't understand why this was allowed to happen. The report should just have started with "there is no capacity at Sheffield Midland, put it somewhere else". Moving local services away from the station is mind-bogglingly stupid.

Anyone that has to sit on a train getting annoyed waiting for a platform to become free is surely going to be overjoyed by this...honest  Hey let's cram even more services in so we can be even later than we were before or maybe force us to walk to a tram stop which somehow would have to cope with a whole load of new tram services? Or am I getting that wrong?

[Annie Bynnol 612]

Sheffield City Council did not propose anything new.

Of the final two routes then on offer by the Government the Council wanted the Beighton Victoria Chapeltown route which would have created a HS2 station at Nunnery/Victoria thus encouraging development in that area.

 

The Government chose the Meadowhall (because it was cheaper) route which they later abandoned for an even cheaper route further east towards Mexborough.

 

The lack of planning for the eastern spur of HS2 prooves that it has effectively been abandoned.

 

The purpose of HS2 was always to replace the WCML routes to Manchester and Liverpool.

The  failure of the WCML upgrade in the 90s proved that a new route was essential and that similar upgrades were too expensive and disruptive.

 

HS3 is currently just a doodle and will never be High Speed.

 

In 2022 there will be a significant increase in journey times from Sheffield to London.

 

 

[Andy C 85]

21 hours ago, probedb said:

I still don't understand why this was allowed to happen. The report should just have started with "there is no capacity at Sheffield Midland, put it somewhere else". Moving local services away from the station is mind-bogglingly stupid.

Anyone that has to sit on a train getting annoyed waiting for a platform to become free is surely going to be overjoyed by this...honest  Hey let's cram even more services in so we can be even later than we were before or maybe force us to walk to a tram stop which somehow would have to cope with a whole load of new tram services? Or am I getting that wrong?

I think the idea is the local Doncaster-Sheffield all station trains will be removed freeing up capacity at Sheffield station for the HS2 trains to Leeds/Birmingham/London and a new tram train service will run Sheffield City Centre to Doncaster town and Doncaster Airport. Whether the tram trains is from the Sheffield Station tram stop or Sheffield Cathedral isn't mentioned, however I think there is hope for major investment in the tram network to add lots of new tram train lines including one to Waverley/AMP and maybe one to Stocksbridge so what trams do in Sheffield City Centre may look different by then.