Turko-Russian powder-keg

[GLASGOWOODS 10]

I should have said that Russia seems to be getting more aggressive towards the west and other countries. Perhaps you need to talk to tzijlstra he is full of sensible information and probably the most intelligent person on this forum. On all subjects.[/QUOTE]

 

Yeh....I got some great advice and tips from tzijlstra in the knitting forum.

[tzijlstra 11]

Hauxwell, you made me blush! Glasgee, you made me laugh

 

On the topic of knitting: There is no way that the plane was over Turkish airspace for five minutes, someone is knitting stories together to make them fit. Equally, Russian propaganda does most certainly exist - as does Western press-bias, in case you haven't noticed, a lot of the press is telling a very one-sided story: ISIS bad, Assad bad, all others OK. It doesn't work like that, the whole story is interlaced with complexity and when the Russians say: "You were dumb for removing Saddam and Khaddafi, look at those countries now!" They have a point, yet here we see that as propaganda apparently?

 

This is why the current situation is so dangerous, everybody is a little bit right and a whole lot wrong. As long as we keep clinging to our little bit right the whole lot wrong is going to cause a lot more damage.

[Dubaidani13 10]

well this situation just escalated! according to the news Barrack Obama seems to be under the impression that its almost a state of war between Russia and Turkey,and Turkey has a right to "defend" its airspace even for a tiny infringement?? and not even whilst under attack? well this is going to pan out well? what next Russia launch air strikes on Turkey???? Tourism not looking good for the area??

[JFKvsNixon 11]

well this situation just escalated! according to the news Barrack Obama seems to be under the impression that its almost a state of war between Russia and Turkey,and Turkey has a right to "defend" its airspace even for a tiny infringement?? and not even whilst under attack? well this is going to pan out well? what next Russia launch air strikes on Turkey???? Tourism not looking good for the area??

 

I don't think that this was the only Russian incursion into Turkey it was one of many, and Russia was warned by Turkey that they'd start defending their airspace. Think of it as the straw the broke the camels back.

 

During the Cold war, the Soviets were never slow about shooting down American plans that incurred their airspace.

[chalga 10]

well nato expanding into former soviet republics and surrounding Russia has altered Russia's military posture.

 

NATO don't just jump into countries and take over,the countries actually want them in to protect them from Putins military posture and troublemaking.......the Baltic States have asked for more NATO,not less.

[Berberis 10]

well nato expanding into former soviet republics and surrounding Russia has altered Russia's military posture.

 

Don't be a fool. These ex soviet states where sovereign countries before Russia and Germany took them over. They suffered under the boot of communism and as soon as the time was right, they stood up in peaceful protest and demanded their sovereignty back, which was their right.

[999tigger 10]

Hauxwell, you made me blush! Glasgee, you made me laugh

 

On the topic of knitting: There is no way that the plane was over Turkish airspace for five minutes, someone is knitting stories together to make them fit. Equally, Russian propaganda does most certainly exist - as does Western press-bias, in case you haven't noticed, a lot of the press is telling a very one-sided story: ISIS bad, Assad bad, all others OK. It doesn't work like that, the whole story is interlaced with complexity and when the Russians say: "You were dumb for removing Saddam and Khaddafi, look at those countries now!" They have a point, yet here we see that as propaganda apparently?

 

This is why the current situation is so dangerous, everybody is a little bit right and a whole lot wrong. As long as we keep clinging to our little bit right the whole lot wrong is going to cause a lot more damage.

 

Yes Hauxwells comments made me lol as well.

 

1. It wasnt over Turkey for 5 minutes. Who is saying that? It was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. It wasnt the first time such incursions had happened and they had warned them about invading their airspace on several occasions. They have a right to shoot a plane down thats invades their airpspace, whether they should have exercised it then is different. I could see a similar incursion might have the same result if they had flown into British airspace. There was no reason they had to fly so close to the border.

 

2. What is the good side of ISIS for this country, unless you are actually in ISIS?

 

3. If Russia says we were dumb for removing Saddam and Gadaffi, then thats with the benefit of hindsight. Its not as though Russia makes perfect decisions. the mistake in iraq was not having planned and prepapred sufficiently for what happened after saddam was removed.

 

 

Is the situation dangerous? I dont think so, its just an incident of one plane, but then youd have to look whether the leaders are so ridiculous they wnat to start an armed conflict over it or they will stick to rhetoric. Putin is cutting relations, he will bomb the Turkmen even more, hes stopping trade and natural gas as well as tourism. I just dont see him atacking Turkey in the doomsday scenario becayse theres nothing in it for him. Nato doesnt want any of it either.

 

---------- Post added 25-11-2015 at 09:44 ----------

 

NATO don't just jump into countries and take over,the countries actually want them in to protect them from Putins military posture and troublemaking.......the Baltic States have asked for more NATO,not less.

 

I thought his statement was ambiguous, so he could be right without having the meaning you attribute to it.

[L00b 441]

(I'm sure thats classified as a war crime in the GC).

I doubt the GC applies 'technically', since there's no war between Syria (of which the Turkmen are natives) and Russia and the Turkmen are, in context, armed anti-government opponents/rebels/terrorists/<etc.>, to the same extent as e.g. IS combatants.

 

So, it's not a war crime as such. It's "just" murder.

 

FWIW I'm hoping Putin just uses his trademark sledgehammer to flatten them all, along with IS and anyone else in the area, with a few daisycutters, and takes the opportunity to down any Turkish F16s that happen to stray into Syrian airspace for a few seconds.

 

I mean, speaking of hypocrisy, let's wind back the clock a few years:

Turkey said its jet had unintentionally strayed into Syrian airspace while on patrol but had been shot down over international waters.

Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, has threatened Syria with retaliation for the shooting down of a military jet, and warned that Turkish armed forces would respond to any Syrian encroachment on their joint border.

[Harrystottle 10]

A few years ago the Syrians shot down two Turkish jets that had briefly strayed into Syrian airspace. Turkey was outraged.

 

So they shouldn't be surprised that the Russians are angry now. If that anger will take a concrete form we'll have to see.

 

Turkey have been tacitly supporting ISIS for a while and Cameron should be under no doubt that people in general are not busting a gut to defend the Turks.

[Berberis 10]

A few years ago the Syrians shot down two Turkish jets that had briefly strayed into Syrian airspace. Turkey was outraged.

 

So they shouldn't be surprised that the Russians are angry now. If that anger will take a concrete form we'll have to see.

 

Turkey have been tacitly supporting ISIS for a while and Cameron should be under no doubt that people in general are not busting a gut to defend the Turks.

 

According to the Turks, there were two Russian jets that were repeatably warned they where about to stray into Turkish airspace. One turned back while the other continued over Turkey. Two Turkish fighter jets on patrol intercepted the jet and shot it down.

[999tigger 10]

A few years ago the Syrians shot down two Turkish jets that had briefly strayed into Syrian airspace. Turkey was outraged.

 

So they shouldn't be surprised that the Russians are angry now. If that anger will take a concrete form we'll have to see.

 

Turkey have been tacitly supporting ISIS for a while and Cameron should be under no doubt that people in general are not busting a gut to defend the Turks.

 

They arent surprised though. Whats your point?

[Berberis 10]

The US now say Turkey downed the jet in Syrian airspace. I assume that if true this will be a relief to NATO as they will not be forced to support a member states aggression outside of their boarders.

 

Some say Turkey only got involved because Russia bombed oil tankers destined for Turkey.

 

I'm suspicious of both parties in this, but I'm a little more supportive of Russia than Turkey.