Where were the gritters?

[Eater Sundae 12]

If you drive slow enough you will never skid on ice, on a flat road anyway.

 

My point is that you are declaring regular tyres to be not roadworthy when conditions make them ineffective.

But you are excusing the same tyres in summer and other tyres in other situations when it's the conditions that make them ineffective. On sheet ice, winter tyres are ineffective. So extending your argument, because there are conditions under which they are not effective, they're not roadworthy when those conditions are possible.

 

It's not when the conditions are possible, it is when they occur. if the conditions occur, it is the drivers responsibility to stop driving, because their vehicle is no longer roadworthy.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Eater Sundae
Added a bit

[Cyclone 10]

So if there is a possibility of sheet ice, nobody should drive anywhere.

Seems pretty extreme.

 

Winter tyres are better in cold conditions. But as I said before, they aren't magic. It's entirely possible for them to slip on ice.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Cyclone

[lazarus 68]

So we had at least 3 days notice of overnight snow and frost for last night which was pretty accurate as when I got up this morning it was white over and icy.

 

Roads were atrocious and dangerous due to the ice but once again Sheffield Council failed to grit.

They cannot be everywhere at the same time, give them a chance.

[Eater Sundae 12]

So if there is a possibility of sheet ice, nobody should drive anywhere.

Seems pretty extreme.

 

Winter tyres are better in cold conditions. But as I said before, they aren't magic. It's entirely possible for them to slip on ice.

 

Well if one person tries by fitting winter tyres, but still crashes because the conditions are so extreme, then he would have some mitigation if accused of driving an unroadworthy vehicle. But if the conditions needed studded tyres, the driver would still be driving an unroadworthy car.

 

On the other hand, the person who makes no effort to fit suitable tyres and still drives when the conditions make those tyres unsuitable, has no such mitigation when they lose control.

 

Just because the law doesn't specifically require winter grade tyres doesn't mean that drivers are correct to use summer tyres if the conditions are too severe.

 

I've no reason to think that anyone has ever been done for having an unroadworthy car in situations like these, but I don't see why they couldn't be if the police and CPS wanted to. Whether a car is roadworthy or not is affected by the conditions. I don't see why drivers should be exempt from having a roadworthy car. As said above, if the conditions change to make carrying on too dangerous or risky, then they should stop. Ultimately it's the driver's responsibility to stop driving if necessary.

[Blackbeard 10]

Well if one person tries by fitting winter tyres, but still crashes because the conditions are so extreme, then he would have some mitigation if accused of driving an unroadworthy vehicle. But if the conditions needed studded tyres, the driver would still be driving an unroadworthy car.

 

On the other hand, the person who makes no effort to fit suitable tyres and still drives when the conditions make those tyres unsuitable, has no such mitigation when they lose control.

 

Just because the law doesn't specifically require winter grade tyres doesn't mean that drivers are correct to use summer tyres if the conditions are too severe.

 

I've no reason to think that anyone has ever been done for having an unroadworthy car in situations like these, but I don't see why they couldn't be if the police and CPS wanted to. Whether a car is roadworthy or not is affected by the conditions. I don't see why drivers should be exempt from having a roadworthy car. As said above, if the conditions change to make carrying on too dangerous or risky, then they should stop. Ultimately it's the driver's responsibility to stop driving if necessary.

Just to complicate things, studded tyres are illeagle in Germany although I think they are OK in Austria, Switzerland and Scandinavia.

http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/spikereifen-nageln-ueber-schnee-und-eis-a-271646.html

[Cyclone 10]

Well if one person tries by fitting winter tyres, but still crashes because the conditions are so extreme, then he would have some mitigation if accused of driving an unroadworthy vehicle. But if the conditions needed studded tyres, the driver would still be driving an unroadworthy car.

Only by your new definition of roadworthy, that takes into account unusual road conditions.

By the legal definition, a car on regular tyres with sufficient tread is roadworthy.

 

On the other hand, the person who makes no effort to fit suitable tyres and still drives when the conditions make those tyres unsuitable, has no such mitigation when they lose control.

 

Just because the law doesn't specifically require winter grade tyres doesn't mean that drivers are correct to use summer tyres if the conditions are too severe.

Well, it kind of means that legally they are driving a roadworthy vehicle.

 

I've no reason to think that anyone has ever been done for having an unroadworthy car in situations like these, but I don't see why they couldn't be if the police and CPS wanted to.

Because it's entirely unreasonable.

Whether a car is roadworthy or not is affected by the conditions.

I disagree. It's nonsensical to suggest such. A sudden heavy shower could suddenly see a whole bunch of drivers accused of not having road worthy cars, which is clearly nonsense if they were all roadworthy 10 minutes before when it was dry.

I don't see why drivers should be exempt from having a roadworthy car. As said above, if the conditions change to make carrying on too dangerous or risky, then they should stop.

Agreed. But you say this as if it's objective and not entirely subjective.

[Katie Event 10]

£240 for four new winter tyres incl fitting ? Do you drive a matchbox ?

 

It's what I believe is called a "small family" car which has 16" wheels.

 

I bought my tyres for £51 each including delivery, so it was actually £204 for the tyres, not £200 as I stated earlier. I did get some money back because I bought them through quidco though. The tyres were highly recommended by German testers.

 

I consider the cost of tyres and other consumables when I choose my vehicles. It would seem that this is unusual.

 

---------- Post added 23-11-2015 at 17:05 ----------

 

Winter tyres aren't magic, if you're on ice, they're going to slide as well. So by that definition all cars are not roadworthy in the winter when you might actually find some real ice.

 

In the summer it's also possible for all tyres to aquaplane if there is sufficient water and speed. So again, that makes all cars unroadworthy.

 

, which is made entirely of "real ice"

 

The experiment showed that the stopping distance on an unbroken sheet of ice of a car with winter tyres was less than half that of a car with summer tyres on, and that the car in summer tyres was unable to make a 90 degree corner at 10mph, whereas the car with winter tyres was.

 

I think it is irrefutable that winter tyres offer significantly more grip on sheet ice than summer tyres do.

 

I've driven many miles over the years, and as I like to travel to Wales I have driven in a lot of rain, but I have never experienced aquaplaning even though on occasion I have had less than perfect tyres on my cars. I presume this is because I drive with consideration for the conditions. Have you experienced aquaplaning in the rain, Cyclone? If so, could you furnish us with more detail? Were your tyres in good condition? Were you driving too quickly for the conditions?

[Vague_Boy 10]

1. It isn't the council who do the gritting.

2. The gritters have been out.

3. As a professional driver, you should know that gritting has little effect on snow. Still less on snow that melts and re-freezes.

 

Please stop trying to confuse the OP with your underhanded logic and sneaky common sense.

 

We don't need your kind on here.

 

Don't you KNOW that it's all everyone else's fault?

[Starlc 11]

Gritting on M1 earlier. It must be difficult though. In S13 there was very little snow not even enough that could be classed as a light covering but in other parts of the city is seems to have been quite thick.

But if grit bins were still available people could spread the grit and help to make some areas safer.

 

What snow therehas been none at all where i am !

[big_g 10]

£240 for four new winter tyres incl fitting ? Do you drive a matchbox ?

£212 for the four tyres that I've just ordered - fitted. That's for a Picasso.

 

When it comes to next April I'll have to pay to get them swapped back over. For the extra grip though, I think the fitting charge is a small price for my safety as well as the safety of other road users.

 

I actually fitted winter tyres on my push bike last year - absolutely amazing. Dead funny when cars were stuck and I just whizzed past.

[Eater Sundae 12]

Only by your new definition of roadworthy, that takes into account unusual road conditions.

By the legal definition, a car on regular tyres with sufficient tread is roadworthy.

Well, it kind of means that legally they are driving a roadworthy vehicle.

Because it's entirely unreasonable.

Whether a car is roadworthy or not is affected by the conditions.

I disagree. It's nonsensical to suggest such. A sudden heavy shower could suddenly see a whole bunch of drivers accused of not having road worthy cars, which is clearly nonsense if they were all roadworthy 10 minutes before when it was dry.

Agreed. But you say this as if it's objective and not entirely subjective.

 

If the sudden shower makes it unsafe to drive, they should stop. Why isn't that obvious to you?

[Cyclone 10]

They should stop, I agree. But it doesn't in any way render their cars unroadworthy, which was your claim.

 

---------- Post added 24-11-2015 at 09:53 ----------

 

, which is made entirely of "real ice"

 

The experiment showed that the stopping distance on an unbroken sheet of ice of a car with winter tyres was less than half that of a car with summer tyres on, and that the car in summer tyres was unable to make a 90 degree corner at 10mph, whereas the car with winter tyres was.

 

I think it is irrefutable that winter tyres offer significantly more grip on sheet ice than summer tyres do.

It's lucky that I wasn't refuting that then isn't it!

 

I've driven many miles over the years, and as I like to travel to Wales I have driven in a lot of rain, but I have never experienced aquaplaning even though on occasion I have had less than perfect tyres on my cars. I presume this is because I drive with consideration for the conditions. Have you experienced aquaplaning in the rain, Cyclone? If so, could you furnish us with more detail? Were your tyres in good condition? Were you driving too quickly for the conditions?

I have once. The rain had stopped actually, came across a large body of standing water on the motorway.

Quite unpleasant, even though it was only for a half a second and the car came out of it still facing forwards.

That was at 70, with the road mostly in a moderately wet state, just this random pool of standing water. My tyres were in good condition. (They are wide though, making aquaplaning more likely).

 

---------- Post added 24-11-2015 at 09:54 ----------

 

Totally irrelevant to the point being made though.

 

A change in the road conditions does not render cars unroadworthy, it just makes them less optimal for those conditions.

 

And for what it's worth, I wouldn't take my car anywhere if there was significant snow about. The last few times we had snow that lasted, my car stayed on the drive for a fortnight and we use the smaller car, in which we carry snow socks in case it gets stuck.