Junior Doctors row: 98% vote to strike

[Eric Arthur 10]

Let's just work 'em to death instead

 

You're just being immature and silly. Im saying just the opposite, work them less, put the patient first.

 

 

That's what doctors say they want too. The only problem is that they want to a payrise to work less, and they are putting patients at risk by going on strike until they get it.

[JFKvsNixon 11]

Your analogy is from the schoolyard. Are plumbers an essential service with no competition? No.

 

Doctors are essential and there is no choice of service. Or are you actually saying that doctors are like plumbers?

 

I think that you've missed my point, yet again! I was arguing that it is not unusual for different professions and trades to get paid different rates on 9pm Saturday then 9am Tuesday. Paramedics and police officers also do.

 

I work longer hours than doctors but I've never felt the need to withhold my services even though they aren't essential.

 

Doctors shouldn't be allowed to go on strike if they really are an essential service.

 

Once again, you're missing the point of the argument. It isn't that the doctors have to work long hours, it's that they're going to get paid less for working their long hours and they believe that the removal of safeguards that limited the hours that junior doctors worked will have an effect on patient safety.

[Eric Arthur 10]

I think that you've missed my point, yet again! I was arguing that it is not unusual for different professions and trades to get paid different rates on 9pm Saturday then 9am Tuesday. Paramedics and police officers also do.

 

 

 

Once again, you're missing the point of the argument. It isn't that the doctors have to work long hours, it's that they're going to get paid less for working their long hours and they believe that the removal of safeguards that limited the hours that junior doctors worked will have an effect on patient safety.

 

No, you've missed that pay unsocial hours allowances and on call allowances are in the offer being made to junior doctors.

[Cyclone 10]

But unsocial hours have been defined as not to include Saturdays during the day, and to start at 2200 at night and finish at 0700.

 

http://www.bma.org.uk/working-for-change/in-depth-junior-and-consultant-contract/ddrb-recommendations-analysis-for-juniors/junior-doctors-contract-negotiations-faq

 

No. The recommendations propose that the times of the day and week that are considered to be ‘standard’ or routine times to be at work, are extended. Currently 7pm-7am Monday to Friday and the whole of Saturday and Sunday are considered ‘unsocial’ hours, and when you work during these times you will get a higher rate of pay. Under the DDRB proposals, ‘standard time’ would be extended to 10pm in the evening both from Monday to Friday and on Saturday too. This will lead to an increase in the potential working hours during the week for which you will only get paid at the basic rate, and a decrease in the hours for which you could get paid at a premium rate. Rotas that include more unsocial shifts attract a higher banding supplement.

 

It has the effect of cutting pay for doctors if they continue to work the same hours as they do now.

 

---------- Post added 15-01-2016 at 14:17 ----------

 

Not every day. Few doctors do for that matter but that's incidental.

 

You seem to be agreeing with me that doctors are an essential service, in which case they should not be allowed to go on strike, just like the police or armed forces.

 

They clearly are not in the habit of striking in order to hold the country to ransom.

 

Even whilst striking they are ensuring patient safety and emergency cover.

 

The last strike before the current one was in 1975.

 

Chances are that most of the junior doctors from then are now retired.

So there hasn't been a strike in well over a generation.

 

Perhaps that should tell you something about why they are striking now... And how strongly they feel about the issue.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Cyclone

[lines 10]

Not every day. Few doctors do for that matter but that's incidental.

 

You seem to be agreeing with me that doctors are an essential service, in which case they should not be allowed to go on strike, just like the police or armed forces.

 

They all form part of a system, even the dispensing pharmacist if dicing with death if they prescribe the wrong drugs, etc, etc...

 

That's an assumption on your behalf, how incorrect you are! Even worse you have the audacity and where with all to tell me what I think and try to force it on me. Yup you sound like some slave owning snob, you should be ashamed of yourself!

[JFKvsNixon 11]

No, you've missed that pay unsocial hours allowances and on call allowances are in the offer being made to junior doctors.

 

Where have I missed that point? The DoH's proposal will no longer pay the junior doctors unsocial allowances for working 9pm on a Saturday night.

 

The proposal, taken from here:

 

Under the current contract, standard time is set out as 7am to 7pm Monday to Friday. Junior doctors routinely work outside of ‘standard time’ in order to provide patients with high quality care around the clock.

 

When doctors work outside of this standard time they receive a pay premium (as part of their banding supplement). This is to reflect the impact that working evenings, nights, Saturdays and Sundays has on personal and family life.

 

The government no longer wants to recognise the impact of working evenings and Saturdays, and so plans to extend standard time to 7am to 10pm Monday to Saturday. Only nights and Sundays would be paid at a higher rate, with Sundays being less valued than nights.

 

The government wants doctors to continue to work evenings and Saturdays, but just reduce the rate of pay for them. This means that 30 hours currently paid at a premium would move into standard time, and working a Saturday would be the same as working a Tuesday.

[Cyclone 10]

That's what doctors say they want too. The only problem is that they want to a payrise to work less, and they are putting patients at risk by going on strike until they get it.

 

This is just a lie.

 

The BMA has not proposed a pay rise, they were happy with the existing contract. It's the government trying to impose longer hours and less pay which is the problem.

 

Patients are not at risk, elective work was cancelled, emergency care continued as normal.

 

---------- Post added 15-01-2016 at 14:20 ----------

 

Few doctors do

 

Few Doctors deal with "life threatening situations"...

 

Wow.

 

---------- Post added 15-01-2016 at 14:21 ----------

 

5 days on 2 off on a Rota system,surely no one's asking them to work 7 days a week.

 

How do you think they work at moment?

[Eric Arthur 10]

This is just a lie.

 

The BMA has not proposed a pay rise, they were happy with the existing contract. It's the government trying to impose longer hours and less pay which is the problem.

I'm not in the habit of lying. The end result of what junior doctors want is a pay rise, or shorter hours for the same money if you like. I completely agree that they should work fewer hours.

 

 

Patients are not at risk

You've not seen their strike plan then.

 

Few Doctors deal with "life threatening situations"...

 

Wow.

 

Every day? Get a grip.

[lines 10]

...

Every day? Get a grip.

 

Do you realise how many people a day die in this country alone! Get a grip yourself...

[Cyclone 10]

I'm not in the habit of lying. The end result of what junior doctors want is a pay rise, or shorter hours for the same money if you like. I completely agree that they should work fewer hours.

No it isn't. What they want is to not have the new contract, which requires longer hours for less money, to be imposed on them.

 

You've not seen their strike plan then.

 

Yes, I have.

 

Every day? Get a grip.

 

Perhaps you're confusing Junior Dr with GP?

[JFKvsNixon 11]

I'm not in the habit of lying. The end result of what junior doctors want is a pay rise, or shorter hours for the same money if you like.

 

Don't be disingenuous, the junior doctors are not striking for a change in their working conditions!!!!

 

I completely agree that they should work fewer hours.

 

So why are you not supporting their opposition to a removal of a measure put in place that stopped the junior doctors working longer hours?

 

The BMA's argument, taken from here:

 

There are limits to prevent employers overworking their doctors, and there are rules about how much rest and how many breaks doctors should receive. Equally important, the rules are not just written on paper – the contract contains a mechanism to ensure that they are enforced.

 

Employers who don’t stick to the limits are financially penalised. Because employers don’t want to pay out large sums of money for breaking the rules, they try to stay within the limits.

 

I'd like to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to counter the DOH's claims, and make the public aware of why the junior doctors were forced into taking this extreme measure.

[Eric Arthur 10]

Don't be disingenuous, the junior doctors are not striking for a change in their working conditions!!!!

It's not disingenuous at all, they are striking against a change, not for a change. To repeat the actual words, The end result of what junior doctors want is a pay rise, or shorter hours for the same money .

 

Is it correct to assume that you wouldn't be for the status quo? How would you sum up the end result of their demands?

 

So why are you not supporting their opposition to a removal of a measure put in place that stopped the junior doctors working longer hours?

I never even implied that I didn't want them to work fewer hours. I'm interested in the quality of patient care, not doctor sensibilities.