Junior Doctors row: 98% vote to strike

[Eric Arthur 10]

I can also read.

Fill your boots.

 

http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/files/EHCI_2014/EHCI_2014_report.pdf

 

http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/170250/1/9789240694439_eng.pdf?ua=1&ua=1

[Cyclone 10]

And just for fun

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-the-best-out-of-11-western-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html

 

NHS ranked 1st out of 11 western countries (with comparable health care).

 

And this would suggest that UK trained Doctors are superior to foreign trained ones, although the sample is self selecting for the foreign ones.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9771022/Revealed-3-in-4-of-Britains-danger-doctors-are-trained-abroad.html

 

As to the new contract being dangerous

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/04/junior-doctor-contract-patients-danger

http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/14197629.Striking_junior_doctors_say_new_contracts_will_harm_patients/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34280571/junior-doctors-say-contract-changes-will-risk-lives

 

It's the strongly held belief of nearly all Doctors (junior and consultant) and of the BMA.

 

Perhaps you think you know better than them though Eric. Hunt certainly does. Even though he appears to be either a liar or an idiot, with his constant misrepresentation of statistics about the NHS.

 

---------- Post added 14-01-2016 at 11:22 ----------

 

Fill your boots.

 

http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/files/EHCI_2014/EHCI_2014_report.pdf

 

http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/170250/1/9789240694439_eng.pdf?ua=1&ua=1

 

I didn't claim that the NHS was the best in the world, strawman.

 

Neither of those links actually measures the effectiveness of the NHS, they both appear to be studying the health of the country. Clearly the NHS is not responsible for the way people eat or exercise or lifestyle factors in general.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Cyclone

[999tigger 10]

Fill your boots.

 

http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/files/EHCI_2014/EHCI_2014_report.pdf

 

http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/170250/1/9789240694439_eng.pdf?ua=1&ua=1

 

He made a claim about some of the best staff in the world rather than the NHS being the best system in the world. They are different things.

[Eric Arthur 10]

He made a claim about some of the best staff in the world rather than the NHS being the best system in the world. They are different things.

 

You make a good point, but since we're in a science based environment it's why I pointed out the cause as well as the effect, as well as providing the evidence base.

 

As a reminder.

 

The NHS is patently not stuffed full of some of the best in the world, or if it is they are seriously underperforming by killing more people and creating a lower life expectancy than more than a dozen other nations.

 

Not the best or underperforming is Hobsons choice for patients. There are some off-the-cuff response arguments about governments and funding but I suggest that the statistics I've linked to are looked at first because they don't support that line and I won't be explaining why having written this.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Eric Arthur

[Cyclone 10]

Your evidence appears to be assessments of the general health of the populace. Not a good indicator IMO for the level of skill of doctors in the NHS.

 

Nor have you tried to offer any evidence against my second opinion, that the doctors are striking because they believe the new contract will cause direct harm to patients (which appears to be something you're concerned about, at least when you can use it to suggest that the doctors could be better).

 

---------- Post added 14-01-2016 at 11:42 ----------

 

and I won't be explaining why having written this.

 

Can't I think is the word you were looking for.

[Eric Arthur 10]

So you still haven't looked at the linked evidence. No change in your usual pattern there then.

[999tigger 10]

 

The NHS is patently not stuffed full of some of the best in the world, or if it is they are seriously underperforming by killing more people and creating a lower life expectancy than more than a dozen other nations. If you want to keep on kidding yourself that the NHS is world leader go ahead and knock yourself out but expect a 5 hour wait before you get treated.

 

Isnt it you instering the phrase "stuffed full", when in fact, when in fact he just said some, which is pretty vague and quite an easy standard to meet.

 

 

As pointed out one of the problems of the contract is it makes it less attractive to be a Dr in the NHS, hence people are walking with their feet to have their careers elsewhere. This brain drain from the UK is an expensive loss for the UK with the NHS then having to brain drain other Drs from across the world to make up that shortfall.

 

You cna have the best people in the world, but if you dont have enough of them and your system isnt properly resourced, then the results can be much lower.

 

---------- Post added 14-01-2016 at 11:58 ----------

 

So you still haven't looked at the linked evidence. No change in your usual pattern there then.

 

I looked at it. the NHS is a big subject but this thread was about junior Drs and being on strike.

[Cyclone 10]

So you still haven't looked at the linked evidence. No change in your usual pattern there then.

 

Yes I looked. How do you think I could comment on it otherwise.

 

---------- Post added 14-01-2016 at 12:01 ----------

 

Isnt it you instering the phrase "stuffed full", when in fact, when in fact he just said some, which is pretty vague and quite an easy standard to meet.

His entire argument is based on straw manning.

He started arguing by telling me that my opinion wasn't believable, as in I was lying about my opinion. A stupid proposition to make unless he can read my mind.

 

As pointed out one of the problems of the contract is it makes it less attractive to be a Dr in the NHS, hence people are walking with their feet to have their careers elsewhere. This brain drain from the UK is an expensive loss for the UK with the NHS then having to brain drain other Drs from across the world to make up that shortfall.

It's not only that. By forcing doctors to work extremely long hours it will directly increase the danger of harm to patients.

Eric wants to claim that we don't have well trained doctors, but he appears to support forcing those same doctors to work extremely high numbers of hours, making them far less effective doctors than they are now.

 

You cna have the best people in the world, but if you dont have enough of them and your system isnt properly resourced, then the results can be much lower.

 

Indeed. A despite Tory claims, real funding in the NHS has been continuously cut for quite a few years now.

[Eric Arthur 10]

As pointed out one of the problems of the contract is it makes it less attractive to be a Dr in the NHS, hence people are walking with their feet to have their careers elsewhere. This brain drain from the UK is an expensive loss for the UK with the NHS then having to brain drain other Drs from across the world to make up that shortfall.

 

This is a good point and part of the wider issue that an attitude of entitlement has been fostered with the NHS which has brought us to the disaster that we have today. Patients feel entitled, doctors feel entitled. Nobody wants to get to grips with the realities of cost though,but they continue to feel entitled. those foreign doctors seem to aspire to working in the UK, whereas ours seem to prefer the Australian sunshine once qualified.

 

There are some side issues, such as the historic macho culture around working hours, the reluctance to talk about problems, and the general whiny attitude that comes from the entitlement.

 

What we've got at the moment is a government trying to get to grips with it in a somewhat cackhanded manner, and the BMA trade union flexing its muscles of whiny entitlement.

[lines 10]

Oi, junior Doc's, are you listening, 100% behind you!

[ukdobby 223]

I'm not 100% sure why they're striking,is it because the hours are being cut and the weekend becomea a normal working day so not being paid overtime?surely if that's the case more doctors need to be set on.

[Eric Arthur 10]

I'm not 100% sure why they're striking,is it because the hours are being cut and the weekend becomea a normal working day so not being paid overtime?surely if that's the case more doctors need to be set on.

 

I think you've summed it up well. They say that they don't want to work long hours but they don't want their pay cut either. It's a historic problem created by doctors themselves rather than one brought about by any government but pity any Health Minister who tries to reform the sacred NHS cash cow for the benefit of patients.