Is it safe to holiday in Muslim countries now?

[Nagel 10]

I see those nice chaps blew up a polio vaccination cenre in Pakistan yesterday killing a load of people including the doctors. Polio is on the rise again in Pakistan.

 

The terrorists are very suspicious of the vaccination programme in Pakistan. The reason being it was successfully used by the intelligence agencies as a cover in their hunt for Osama bin Laden.

 

It was a stupid move in retrospect.

[sgtkate 10]

The terrorists are very suspicious of the vaccination programme in Pakistan. The reason being it was successfully used by the intelligence agencies as a cover in their hunt for Osama bin Laden.

 

It was a stupid move in retrospect.

 

Was it really? Or was that just something the Taliban made up to make people distrustful of the West? Serious question as I thought the latter!

[L00b 441]

You'd avoid an entire continent for security grounds?

Pretty much.

 

The northern coast and the centre is essentially off limits due to terrorism and civil unrest, the eastern coast is essentially off limits due to terrorism (north east) and piracy (east/south east), the western coast is severely lacking in the sort of holiday destination USPs I'm after.

Has South Africa got any more dangerous recently?

Yes, criminality is rising (and it was already fairly non-trivial), bordering on endemic outside of secured zones.

 

I'm ruling out Brazil on the same grounds. It looks like the far west down there, when you take the time to do a bit of research. And I'm not talking about favelas only.

How about Guana? Or Cape Verde?

See above.

Yes you did.

When I had made a comparison to the number of people killed in Istanbul and Paris recently.

Apples and Oranges.

<...>

I'm not trying to score any points, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

So was I: what's the point of comparing Istanbul and Paris in isolation of the rest of country, when terrorist incidents are clearly and demonstrably country-wide in both instances?

 

I mean, other than as a straightforward statistical comparison based on numbers alone (which is pretty much pointless given your own stance on risk assessment)?

 

There were 6 major terrorist incidents in Turkey last year, one killing over 100 people but not in Istanbul, against 3 in France, one killing over 100 people in Paris. So let's just compare Istanbul and Paris? By your own logic, the risk of getting killed or maimed in an attack in either place is essentially equivalent. So what was your point?

 

Do what you want and make the point you want, C. I ain't going to either destination any time soon all the same, and I doubt it's any skin off your nose. It certainly isn't any off mine.

People are poor at assessing risk, and each time something happens some people cross another entire country or continent of their "might holiday" list. But not France... Because that's close by, and we don't want to be worried that going to a concert in one of our closest neighbours might result in being killed in a terrorist atrocity.

Easier to rule out all of Africa than all of France, or even Paris.

That's was not the meaning of my posts at all, and you know it. I've not ever downplayed or diminished the issue and importance of terrorism in France, indeed frequently as not I have pointed to other and/or smaller and/or earlier incidents than the few 'big ones' which people only get to hear about over here. Edited January 13, 2016 by L00b

[foxy lady 10]

Pretty much.

 

The northern coast and the centre is essentially off limits due to terrorism and civil unrest, the eastern coast is essentially off limits due to terrorism (north east) and piracy (east/south east), the western coast is severely lacking in the sort of holiday destination USPs I'm after.

Yes, criminality is rising (and it was already fairly non-trivial), bordering on endemic outside of secured zones.

 

I'm ruling out Brazil on the same grounds.

See above.

So was I: what's the point of comparing Istanbul and Paris in isolation of the rest of country, when terrorist incidents are clearly and demonstrably country-wide in both instances?

 

I mean, other than as a straightforward statistical comparison based on numbers alone (which is pretty much pointless given your own stance on risk assessment)?

 

There were 6 major terrorist incidents in Turkey last year, one killing over 100 people but not in Istanbul, against 3 in France, one killing over 100 people in Paris. So let's just compare Istanbul and Paris?

 

Do what you want and make the point you want, C. I ain't going to either destination all the same.

That's was not the meaning of my posts at all, and you know it.

 

It goes way beyond those killed and injured in terrorist attacks. The trauma suffered by those in a resort who either witnessed the events, knew folk who were or even spent several days waiting under armed guard to be evacuated can suffer trauma for the rest of thie lives. It is something our resident statis man seems not to take on board.

I'm very happy going to France because I believe that the security guards, police and airport staff are actually on my side.

Edited January 13, 2016 by foxy lady

[Nagel 10]

Was it really? Or was that just something the Taliban made up to make people distrustful of the West? Serious question as I thought the latter!

 

The Guardian are reporting it as real, as are the National Geographic:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/02/150225-polio-pakistan-vaccination-virus-health/

[Badlittlepup 10]

Yes you did.

When I had made a comparison to the number of people killed in Istanbul and Paris recently.

Apples and Oranges.

 

You'd avoid an entire continent for security grounds?

 

Has South Africa got any more dangerous recently?

How about Guana? Or Cape Verde?

 

I'm not trying to score any points, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

People are poor at assessing risk, and each time something happens some people cross another entire country or continent of their "might holiday" list. But not France... Because that's close by, and we don't want to be worried that going to a concert in one of our closest neighbours might result in being killed in a terrorist atrocity.

Easier to rule out all of Africa than all of France, or even Paris.

 

I'm avoiding France too. And the rest of the EU. I was in France last summer before the problems started too much and it wasn't very pleasant then. There were the problems with the strikes and the migrants at Calais which started while we were there. We were lucky, we managed to slip through on one of the two days there were no problems, but it was horrendous for those who did get stuck. And there was an ISIS attack while we were there where a man was beheaded and their was an attempt to blow up some massive gas containers. As it turned out, it was quite a small attack, but when it first happened they were frightened that there would be coordinated attacks and they also couldn't find the attacker. It wasn't long after Charlie Hebdo so the whole country was on high alert and it just wasn't very nice.

 

I'm not going to go elsewhere in the EU because we have a state on the borders of Europe which has the stated aim of killing as many Europeans as possible. And there are effectively no border checks whatsoever between that state and the EU. I'm not chancing it. I'm going to Ireland instead.

 

I also have family down south, they're avoiding Central London when not necessary and when we visit we stick to the suburbs.

 

I think you're really rude Cyclone. People make personal choices depending on what they feel the risk is. What's the point in going on a holiday if you don't feel it's safe enough to enjoy yourself properly?

 

I'm sure we can all make our own decisions on our holidays without a lecture from the PC brigade thanks. I bet you're not even going on holiday or thinking about taking the risks you're instructing others to are you? I bet you're staying in the UK because you're worried about emissions and are going to go on a lentil weaving, mung bean bothering retreat in the Mendips.

[L00b 441]

I'm very happy going to France because I believe that the security guards, police and airport staff are actually on my side.

They'll certainly be more on your side than their German and Swedish colleagues, by the look of news reports.

 

Especially the pro-Front National sort (...which is still much, if not more still, of the Police, the CRS and the Gendarmes these days).

 

Self-perpetuating part-problem and part-solution all rolled into one, that

[lottiecass 17]

How can you enjoy a holiday in a muslim country? The prospect of something bad happening must be in the minds of those who do go.Me? I would not risk it,even with the chance being slight.

[Cyclone 10]

So was I: what's the point of comparing Istanbul and Paris in isolation of the rest of country, when terrorist incidents are clearly and demonstrably country-wide in both instances?

Someone specifically mentioned Istanbul, hence the point of the comparison. They're both capital cities, it seems like a fair comparison.

 

I mean, other than as a straightforward statistical comparison based on numbers alone (which is pretty much pointless given your own stance on risk assessment)?

Not meaningless, although previous events aren't predictors of future events obviously.

But if someone declares Istanbul as too dangerous to visit on the basis of one event, then logically they must consider Paris the same, no?

 

There were 6 major terrorist incidents in Turkey last year, one killing over 100 people but not in Istanbul, against 3 in France, one killing over 100 people in Paris. So let's just compare Istanbul and Paris? By your own logic, the risk of getting killed or maimed in an attack in either place is essentially equivalent. So what was your point?

Well if we were to talk about the entirety of Turkey and France I'd agree that Turkey is more dangerous. But categorising an entire country as a single risk level is pointless IMO, you don't visit an entire country.

 

Do what you want and make the point you want, C. I ain't going to either destination any time soon all the same, and I doubt it's any skin off your nose. It certainly isn't any off mine.

Indeed, we will both go wherever we want to go. I've already been to France this year and I went to Turkey last year.

That's was not the meaning of my posts at all, and you know it. I've not ever downplayed or diminished the issue and importance of terrorism in France, indeed frequently as not I have pointed to other and/or smaller and/or earlier incidents than the few 'big ones' which people only get to hear about over here.

Not you, but some of the other posters.

Still Africa is huge, but you're prepared to just rule it out entirely. I wouldn't want to generalise that much myself.

 

---------- Post added 13-01-2016 at 15:05 ----------

 

It goes way beyond those killed and injured in terrorist attacks. The trauma suffered by those in a resort who either witnessed the events, knew folk who were or even spent several days waiting under armed guard to be evacuated can suffer trauma for the rest of thie lives. It is something our resident statis man seems not to take on board.

I'm very happy going to France because I believe that the security guards, police and airport staff are actually on my side.

 

You think it's somehow less traumatic to see people killed in Paris than in Tunis or Istanbul?

 

The entire premise of this thread is based on lazy thinking and that's all I'm arguing against.

 

---------- Post added 13-01-2016 at 15:06 ----------

 

How can you enjoy a holiday in a muslim country? The prospect of something bad happening must be in the minds of those who do go.Me? I would not risk it,even with the chance being slight.

 

Whereas in a secular country, say France, you can totally enjoy yourself, go to a concert or a restaurant maybe, secure in the knowledge that you're totally safe...

 

Seriously.

Think for a second.

[truman 10]

Someone specifically mentioned Istanbul, hence the point of the comparison. They're both capital cities,

 

Just being pedantic ..what country is Istanbul the capital of?

[Cyclone 10]

Ha, technically it's not a state capital. It's the largest and most economically prosperous Turkish city though, so a good comparison to Paris.

[lottiecass 17]

I have given it more than a seconds thought,I would feel safer in france than any muslim country.I remember the shootings at the pyramids years ago,my sister had booked to go the month after,she was in a convoy of mini buses headed by and tailed by armoured cars and each with a soldier in jt.Passing through villages with people giving them finger and throat cutting gestures,very welcoming.