Eater Sundae   12 #37 Posted September 29, 2015 Much as I dislike A. Scargill, he fought hard for a better deal for the miners who did a hard, dangerous and very necessary job. Considering the resultant loss of a whole industry, communities, workers et al and the cost of the burgeoning underclass it created; not to mention the rising price of imported coal in subsequent years, it might have been money well spent to support and subsidise the coal industry. It's interesting to note that many of those on here who seem to think it's OK for greedy bosses to be on £megamillions while paying their workforce peanuts, and regularly hold us to ransom by to threatening to 'leave the country' every time they are expected to pay their fair share of tax, would condemn the miners simply for wanting a decent living wage.  The government have a responsibility to keep the country running. They cannot allow a small group of people to get their way and defeat a democratically elected government Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Norseman   10 #38 Posted September 29, 2015 I've just heard on the news that the steelworks are under threat and facing redundancies very soon. It made me wonder what happened to all those miners when Thatcher closed the mines. Did they move from their communities to get work elsewhere, did they just languish on sick benefit, which the job centre encouraged them to do, or did they set up enterprising businesses?  As it happens and since you mentioned it I work with one of them, though he didn't agree with it at the time he said it was the better decision for him anyway in the longer term less the money of course Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
mumkin   10 #39 Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) Regarding the charge that it was Margaret Thatcher who "destroyed" the coal mines and the mining communities. The facts show that far more coal mines closed under the Labour Prime Ministers Harold Wilson and James Callaghan.  These are the figures for the sharply declining number of coal mines open each year under those Labour Governments.  1964 545  1965 .. 504  1966 .. 442  1967 .. 406  1968 .. 330  1969 .. 304    1974 .. 250  1975 .. 241  1976 .. 239  1977 .. 231  1978 .. 223  1979 .. 219  These are the figures for the Thatcher years:  1979 .. 219  1980 .. 213  1981 .. 200  1982 .. 191  1983 .. 170  1984 .. 169  1985 .. 133  1986 .. 110  1987 .. 94  1988 .. 86  1989 .. 73  1990 .. 65  The Lord Palmerston blog says:  It was the ever-erudite @allanholloway who brought to my attention a few weeks back that more coal mines closed under Harold Wilson’s governments than under Margaret Thatcher’s, and I owe him an apology for not having credited him sooner, given the number of retweets I got for passing that on earlier. Based on these figures from the government about 290 mines closed under Wilson in all his time in office, and about 160 under Thatcher. Because the figures are based on year end totals of pits operating, it’s not possible to be precise, but the relative scale of those numbers is clear. So why isn’t Wilson execrated by the Left for his part in the decline of coal mining?  Lets not let facts get in the way of a good old Thatcher bash eh!!! Edited September 29, 2015 by mumkin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
I1L2T3   10 #40 Posted September 29, 2015 i always thought it was economics. just what would we do with coal that we couldn't use, was too poluting to burn and was too expensive to sell? perhaps the railways should have gone back to steam.  We all know it wasn't strictly economics although to be fair many of the pits weren't viable.  It was the nature of the closures that was wrong. It wasn't managed for the benefit of the communities. The communities were crushed because they, to the government and security services, were hotbeds of militancy.  Economics aside those communities were taught a lesson that Thatcher intended would reverberate for generations. And it has.  ---------- Post added 29-09-2015 at 19:16 ----------  Regarding the charge that it was Margaret Thatcher who "destroyed" the coal mines and the mining communities. The facts show that far more coal mines closed under the Labour Prime Ministers Harold Wilson and James Callaghan.  These are the figures for the sharply declining number of coal mines open each year under those Labour Governments.  1964 545  1965 .. 504  1966 .. 442  1967 .. 406  1968 .. 330  1969 .. 304    1974 .. 250  1975 .. 241  1976 .. 239  1977 .. 231  1978 .. 223  1979 .. 219  These are the figures for the Thatcher years:  1979 .. 219  1980 .. 213  1981 .. 200  1982 .. 191  1983 .. 170  1984 .. 169  1985 .. 133  1986 .. 110  1987 .. 94  1988 .. 86  1989 .. 73  1990 .. 65  The Lord Palmerston blog says:  It was the ever-erudite @allanholloway who brought to my attention a few weeks back that more coal mines closed under Harold Wilson’s governments than under Margaret Thatcher’s, and I owe him an apology for not having credited him sooner, given the number of retweets I got for passing that on earlier. Based on these figures from the government about 290 mines closed under Wilson in all his time in office, and about 160 under Thatcher. Because the figures are based on year end totals of pits operating, it’s not possible to be precise, but the relative scale of those numbers is clear. So why isn’t Wilson execrated by the Left for his part in the decline of coal mining?  Lets not let facts get in the way of a good old Thatcher bash eh!!!  The reason was that Wilson worked with the NUM in the 60s and the pit closures were managed decline. Many of the pits were small or exhausted or unviable and part of a job lot bought wholesale during the nationalisation in the 1940s. It was a needed and managed rationalisation which is very, very differerent to the aspproach in the 1980s. For most of the pit closures in the 60s there wasn't massive opposition and there were plenty of other jobs available in the economy anyway.  Two very different scenarios Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
mumkin   10 #41 Posted September 29, 2015  Two very different scenarios  Yea, right! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
I1L2T3 Â Â 10 #42 Posted September 29, 2015 Yea, right! Â Yes they were very different as it happens. My dad was a miner in the 60s driving underground trains. He left the industry around 65-66 and never looked back. What happened in the 80s shocked him and he was glad to be out of it. Trust me it was a very different time and hundreds of mines shut in the 60s with barely a whimper from the NUM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
tinfoilhat   11 #43 Posted September 29, 2015 Yes they were very different as it happens. My dad was a miner in the 60s driving underground trains. He left the industry around 65-66 and never looked back. What happened in the 80s shocked him and he was glad to be out of it. Trust me it was a very different time and hundreds of mines shut in the 60s with barely a whimper from the NUM.  Do you think there wasn't the same level of union outrage because there were more alternative jobs around or unions just having less clout? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
mumkin   10 #44 Posted September 29, 2015 There was a labour government in power... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
I1L2T3 Â Â 10 #45 Posted September 29, 2015 Do you think there wasn't the same level of union outrage because there were more alternative jobs around or unions just having less clout? Â In the 1960s it was a lot to do with the economy doing well and there being plenty of other jobs around. The unions were very powerful at the time though but also realistic. Some of those mines were turkeys. Like I said you have to remember that less than 20 years before practically every mine in the UK had been nationalised, the good the bad and the ugly. In theory the mines surviving in the 80s were the best of what was left although some of those were on their last legs. Â Let's be honest though, if the most of the miners in the 80s had had other options, Scargill would have had nowhere near the power he did. Â ---------- Post added 29-09-2015 at 19:59 ---------- Â There was a labour government in power... Â Yes, and they shut hundreds of unproductive mines with the help of a generally compliant NUM. Â Like I said very different to the 80s Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Dr Stan   10 #46 Posted September 29, 2015 Yes , the Labour party closed more pits in terms of numbers , but not in terms of the percentage of pits remaining open.  Labour 1964 - 69 - 241 closed = 44 % of remaining pits 1974 -79 - 39 closed = 12 % of remaining pits  Conservative 1979 -90 - 154 closed = 70 % of the remaining pits.  As I1L2T3 pointed out the closures in the 1960's closed most of the uneconomic pits , which had to be done for economic reasons . In the 1970's a much smaller number of pits where closed because there was no reason too.  Lady Thatcher closed a much more significant proportion of pits , and for purely ideological reasons .  Regarding the charge that it was Margaret Thatcher who "destroyed" the coal mines and the mining communities. The facts show that far more coal mines closed under the Labour Prime Ministers Harold Wilson and James Callaghan.  These are the figures for the sharply declining number of coal mines open each year under those Labour Governments.  1964 545  1965 .. 504  1966 .. 442  1967 .. 406  1968 .. 330  1969 .. 304    1974 .. 250  1975 .. 241  1976 .. 239  1977 .. 231  1978 .. 223  1979 .. 219  These are the figures for the Thatcher years:  1979 .. 219  1980 .. 213  1981 .. 200  1982 .. 191  1983 .. 170  1984 .. 169  1985 .. 133  1986 .. 110  1987 .. 94  1988 .. 86  1989 .. 73  1990 .. 65  The Lord Palmerston blog says:  It was the ever-erudite @allanholloway who brought to my attention a few weeks back that more coal mines closed under Harold Wilson’s governments than under Margaret Thatcher’s, and I owe him an apology for not having credited him sooner, given the number of retweets I got for passing that on earlier. Based on these figures from the government about 290 mines closed under Wilson in all his time in office, and about 160 under Thatcher. Because the figures are based on year end totals of pits operating, it’s not possible to be precise, but the relative scale of those numbers is clear. So why isn’t Wilson execrated by the Left for his part in the decline of coal mining?  Lets not let facts get in the way of a good old Thatcher bash eh!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
hyper   10 #47 Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) Yes , the Labour party closed more pits in terms of numbers , but not in terms of the percentage of pits remaining open. Labour 1964 - 69 - 241 closed = 44 % of remaining pits 1974 -79 - 39 closed = 12 % of remaining pits  Conservative 1979 -90 - 154 closed = 70 % of the remaining pits.  As I1L2T3 pointed out the closures in the 1960's closed most of the uneconomic pits , which had to be done for economic reasons . In the 1970's a much smaller number of pits where closed because there was no reason too.  Lady Thatcher closed a much more significant proportion of pits , and for purely ideological reasons .  Nay, nay nay, yer statistics are flawed.  If I have a cake and take a quarter, there is 3 quarters left = 75% If I now pass it to you and you take a quarter of the original cake, there is only half left (50%). So by your definition you are more selfish than me cos I left 75% remaining and you left 50% remaining In my mind, we are the same, we both had the same amount  It will always be the case that as something diminishes and you keep removing things, the percentage of what is left is smaller. simples Edited September 30, 2015 by hyper added more stuff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
geared   267 #48 Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) Like I said very different to the 80s  Yes for a start there was a very different man in charge of the NUM.  You seem to gloss over the facts with the comparison, when in actual fact the two scenarios were totally different.  The closures in 84 had been earmarked since the start of the decade, and actually the government had backed down a few years earlier having reached a compromise to keep pits going. When those pits were then again on the chopping block a few years later there was no talks, as soon as the announcement of planned closures was made the strike started.  Previous closures had been smoother as there was negotiations, give and take on both sides, but this time there was nothing. Scargill went for the full on militant approach hoping to emulate the success of the 70's when the NUM toppled the Tory government.  He was no match for Thatcher, she destroyed him. Edited September 30, 2015 by geared Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...