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M1 roadworks (Leeds and Chesterfield)

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Hi Haydn - if you're one of the team that's designing these so-called improvement and causing so much grief to thousands of folks daily over very prolonged periods, are you in any position to comment on the points I raised a few posts above?

Would like any answers /comments so that I can at least rationalise in my mind why such madness is being allowed to go on and on!:help::loopy:

 

There's a big difference between designing the improvement and being the company contracted to implement the changes I'd think.

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Hi Haydn - if you're one of the team that's designing these so-called improvement and causing so much grief to thousands of folks daily over very prolonged periods, are you in any position to comment on the points I raised a few posts above?

Would like any answers /comments so that I can at least rationalise in my mind why such madness is being allowed to go on and on!:help::loopy:

 

I saw your post earlier - I am on holiday at the moment and just posting on here as an informed individual working in the industry, so was gonna come back to you ;-)

 

You've asked a lot, but firstly, contracting on these projects is very controlled, it's not like your typical one man band builder with a few handwritten receipts, there's a whole team of people on three sides ensuring work is progressed on programme, on budget, with minimal disruption and minimal injuries. There's typically a contractor, an employers agent and the employer (Highways England).

 

In with this, there's various sub agents, contractors and suppliers, each dealing with dozens of other projects, so a project of 2-3 years has to be extensively managed to ensure things are made offsite, holes are dug before things need to be placed in them and so on. Things get complex when major utility diversions are required or a railway possession needed - for example widening a lane or building a retaining wall that impacts on either - I'm working on a bridge over the WCML at the moment and we are talking about possessions in the 2018-2020 timeframe, I'm also working on a project that doesn't start on site until March 2020.

 

With regards to 24hr working, this is done across a lot of projects, but is very restricted by staff and equipment resource, plus restrictions on when works can be done - noisy works can't be done at night, full closures can only be done at weekends overnight, lane closures can only be done at night. Some ask why aren't there people working, why can't the speed limit be lifted when there's no work going off - well here's the rub, temporary traffic management takes an age to put out, costs money to install and remove, the cones you see at night offer limited protection, so the steel barriers are used (comes back to risk management) - the steel barriers serve a purpose in protecting not just the workforce, but also structures and excavations that don't have any other protection of vehicle barriers - it's complex, but there's good reasons for doing what's done.

 

As for contractual stuff, claims and damages, I'm not your man, we have cost management people who deal with that

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They remove the temptation to stop, and the ability to stop. And impede the emergency services.

 

I suppose if the stats really show that they're safer, then that must be true... But I'm really surprised.

 

It makes you wonder why hard shoulders ever existed, was there any evidence to support them?

 

I would have though that cars were a lot less reliable when M/ways first came into being..maybe there was more of a demand for somewhere to stop while you waited for the AA?

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It had failed some sort of inspection I think, the concrete mix hadn't been correct. Of course testing it before installation would have saved time and money.

 

---------- Post added 25-09-2015 at 08:37 ----------

 

 

It's one where they can lower the speed limit at a whim. (And remove the hard shoulder to create an extra lane, making it impossible for the emergency services to get through).

 

Actually, it's a great big unmet technical need; testing concrete pre-installation. It can't be done effectively. The only valid EN196 test is the 28 day hardness test. Obviously by this point it's too late; your concrete central reservation is well and truly in place.

 

A company I know of in Letchworth called Concrete Smart Test are trying to develop tech to predict how good concrete will be before pouring, but it's a tricky business.

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Does it vary day to day or something then??

 

because they had to rip out miles and miles of the stuff, surely that took months to install in the first place??

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Actually, it's a great big unmet technical need; testing concrete pre-installation. It can't be done effectively. The only valid EN196 test is the 28 day hardness test. Obviously by this point it's too late; your concrete central reservation is well and truly in place.

 

A company I know of in Letchworth called Concrete Smart Test are trying to develop tech to predict how good concrete will be before pouring, but it's a tricky business.

 

There must have been loads of poor batches then 'cos they ripped out about 8 miles of the stuff.....wonder if it was the wrong spec?

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Haydn, this could be a debate that will last for some time!!! You clearly know more about the facts and figures of the installing of the SMART motorway than me, and facts/figures and evidence of previous schemes are all good in trying to prove that they are safe.

 

Only trouble is, facts/figures and running through the theory of these SMART motorways is one thing, as is including evidence from other schemes across the country (there aren't that many to be honest though where there is no hard shoulder at all), but it doesn't take into account one thing.

 

And that thing is something you can't account for no matter how many times its planned for...

 

Humans.

 

They do unpredictable things all the time. Put them in a stressful situation and they will do something completely irrational. No amount of planning can account for what someone will do.

 

Yes your right, they should be able to get to the refuge if they have a problem with their car, but not everyone thinks as rational as to keep going to get to one of them. All they will think of is I need to stop as the dashboard of my car is telling me to.

 

So they will stop in a live lane. Yes I know they can still do that now, but the vast majority of people will still dive for the hard shoulder if there is a problem. That will be out of the question now.

 

They will be a sitting duck for following traffic. There is no way the mechanics of the SMART motorway can give an immediate warning of a stranded vehicle? There is bound to be a delay...

 

The point you raise about the possibility of emergency vehicles through between the hard shoulder and lane 4 is a tad misguided. What happens when you've got HGV's in lanes 1,2 and 3 and then a large van in lane 4? No amount of moving across by them will give you the room to get past...

 

I just don't think it is safe at all, just my view.

 

Oh, and what happens during a computer malfunction or power cut? How does the SMART motorway fare when it's not got any power? Or the sensors stop working? Too much reliance on technology possibly?

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There's a big difference between designing the improvement and being the company contracted to implement the changes I'd think.

 

Hi Cyclone - thanks for that, I appreciated that the design and contractor have very different functions but thought after Haydn had commented he /she was involved in this type of work - albeit in design, then at least he / she could pass on appropriate comments / answers? It looks like a response has appeared which I'm thanking Haydn for and perhaps will get back when I have the time.:)

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I would have though that cars were a lot less reliable when M/ways first came into being..maybe there was more of a demand for somewhere to stop while you waited for the AA?

 

Good point, go back 20 years and vehicles in general were more unreliable (when I think back to my previous cars I shudder at their reliability).

 

But when they broke down, they conked out and you could coast to the hard shoulder with a single warning light on the dash.

 

Modern cars have so many sensors that if one isn't happy/detects a problem then it lights up all manner of warning lights on the dashboard, which even I become concerned with!

 

So people will stop as they don't want to damage their pride and joy (next biggest purchase most of the times after their house) as the cost to repair modern vehicles can be extortionate!

 

And they will stop in a live lane, usually lane 1 as that is where the hard shoulder used to be, and that is where 44 tonne of HGV will be trapping along at 60mph on its cruise control, with the driver thinking of his next drop/dinner/tv tonight... I don't need to mention what will happen then...

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And they will stop in a live lane, usually lane 1 as that is where the hard shoulder used to be, and that is where 44 tonne of HGV will be trapping along at 60mph on its cruise control, with the driver thinking of his next drop/dinner/tv tonight... I don't need to mention what will happen then...

 

At risk of going around and around on this one - as established earlier - 90% of stops on the hard shoulder are not breakdowns. The scenario you paint of a panicked driver slamming on the brakes at the sight of a warning light will also represent a very small proportion of these breakdowns and if so panicked, the chances of them getting to the hard shoulder if it existed are slim too. Most drivers have a degree of common sense to get to a safe place, these are placed a frequent intervals on the left hand side... Interestingly at a greater frequency than on a high speed dual carriageway like the A1, A63 or A42.

 

When a vehicle slows unexpected in a live lane, there is of course a risk of being hit from behind. That risk is there regardless of a hard shoulder, because it is, an unexpected event. In the moments after an unexpected stop in any lane, a mass of vehicles will slow behind. On a normal motorway, systems are widely spaced so won't generally react until there's a huge queue of traffic causing delays, on a smart motorway, detection systems are every placed practically in sight of each other and react much quicker, to automatically set signs upstream to make drivers aware of the hazard ahead, reduce the speed limit or if necessary, close a lane.

 

The greatest risk of being hit by a another vehicle from behind is on a quieter motorway, where drivers are in a "drone" state because nothing is happening. The whole point of smart is to reduce this risk by alerting approaching drivers of hazards ahead. The scenario you mention could happen on any type of road, the evidence shows that deaths and serious injuries are much less likely to happen on a motorway with smart technologies, which are generally also geared up for all lane running and/or part time hard shoulder running.

 

If you have conclusive evidence to contradict a decade of collision data collected by the Police for Highways England (was Agency) then please, bring it to the discussion.

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Interesting that you mention driver panic.

We had an engine cut out in a Fiesta in the fast overtaking lane, my wife driving.

 

She did exactly the wrong think, braked hard, and I think changed lanes without checking.

And still in a panic managed to put it into 3rd, with the engine off, doing about 60mph, causing more sudden deceleration.

 

I suspect that driver panic when the unexpected happens is more common than you'd think (particularly if you're a more adventurous driver).

 

Edit - it's more common than you'd think if you're adventurous, as the adventures prepare you for things happening and train you not to panic (is what I meant).

We made it to the hard shoulder btw with nobody hitting us...

 

Engine restarted in limp mode and we drove on home. (Sensor failure).

Edited by Cyclone

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Come on Haydn, you know I don't have any 'data' to contradict any 'evidence' that the people involved in the planning of this stretch of motorway has. If I had, do you think I would be having this debate on Sheffield Forum???

 

All I can rely on is my own personal feelings in the matter, which I think I have put across already.

 

And let's be honest, if you've been involved in the planning of this, your going to sing its praises aren't you? Nothing against you for that, it's your job and fair play to you for doing it.

 

With me being against it and you being for it, there is never going to be any common ground is there??? Everything about it smacks of it being done on the cheap, because if it was to be done right, surely they would do the same with our stretch as that of J26-J28 of the M1 (four lanes and a hard shoulder)?

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