M1 roadworks (Leeds and Chesterfield)

[tinfoilhat 11]

Historically there was a great need - in the 1960's cars were just not designed to travel a constant high speed, breakdowns and failures were very common - things have gradually improved to the point were today it's not uncommon for a 15 year old car to be thrashing up the motorway on a daily commute.

 

In the roadworks stretch there was often a sign telling drivers how many people had run out of fuel. Considering they go past two services it's a pretty depressing number. The other thing is flat tyres - particularly hgvs. They're needed, but technology should be able to manage them. Harsh fines for people who don't move over when the arrows tell them to would sharpen a few up too.

[Haydn1971 10]

Some fair points, but your forgetting one thing. When people are driving on the motorway and their car breaksdown/makes funny noises all common sense goes out the window. People panic and they will dive for the hardshoulder, although in this case it won't be there.

 

Not me that's forgetting, all been covered in the numerous risk analysis and collision reviews done over the last decade - Refuges can be a maximum of a mile apart, in reality, they are generally closer because of the space they require interferes with other roadside structures - so on average, a driver is 800m from a refuge, some will be more, some less - a car will travel 31 metres a second at 70mph, the average person will take several seconds to figure out that a noise needs attention, the Highway Code uses 96m as a guide for emergency stops, in reality most cars will stop much quicker but will obviously roll substantially further. As I said before, breakdowns are rare, just 10% of all hardshoulder stops, of these, many will not require an immidiate stop, a blowout will, as will a steering failure, both of these would probably end up with a vehicle stranded in any lane - the smart motorway helps these people in realtime monitoring of traffic around - yes, there are risks in the immediate aftermath of a live lane stop, but that's the same for non-smart too. Equipment monitors for stationary vehicles, the typical dive to lane can be closed immediately, but also, so can any other lane that has a stationary vehicle.

 

All there will be is a refuge around a mile apart. People will stop in the main carriageway (to check for a strange noise/fix a puncture/wonder about a light on the dashboard), and then when they do, they will get taken out by someone who hasn't seen them...

 

Evidence has demonstrated that this is not the case - smart means monitored, there is the data to demonstrate that people don't just stop in live lanes. Refuges have detection equipment too, so help can be dispatched quicker than on a normal motorway environment.

 

How do emergency services get through 4 blocked lanes to a serious collision? With a hard shoulder, heck of a lot easier.

 

Hard shoulders are full of debris - it's not untypical for a motorway policing vehicle to get a puncture every week through hard shoulder use - smart motorways can be used to clear a lane by closing it, lanes 3 & 4 are also typically used by cars and vans, these are narrower and combined with hardened central reserves, space is made by emergency vehicles when a lane closure is not available - and remember, many sections of smart motorway have the hard shoulder closed for much of the day and night, running as a standard three lane plus hard shoulder motorway.

 

How often do you see drivers ignoring the lane closure signs on gantries? Do we think they will obey them when ambulance/fire/police are trying to use that lane to get to help people???

 

Closed lanes on smart motorways are enforced - a driver ignoring this will get a ticket - can't recall if it's s points offence - the message will soon get around. As for emergency services - see above, they make space, can use closed lanes or the hard shoulder that's closed for at least three quarters of the day.

 

So yes, risks reduced for workers on the motorway (although to do work on gantries etc it will involve closing a lane, reducing the capacity of the motorway, where as now it's done on the hard shoulder), but risks for others driving on the hard shoulder? Massively increased in my opinion.

 

Hard shoulders are dangerous places to be, regardless of working or a breakdown... Smart motorways are designed to specifically reduce risks for both workers and users.

 

Plus have you ever come across a vehicle broken down in a live lane on the motorway??? I once saw a people carrier stopped in the roadworks near junction 30. How on earth everything avoided him I will never know, so many near misses. All at 50mph. What will happen when it is 70?

 

Yes, which is what smart motorways are designed to detect, to actively close the lane and protect the area behind the stationary vehicle. Risks are reduced, but you cannot remove all risks, even with a hard shoulder - there are dozens killed each year in hard shoulder collisions, mostly people working or trying to help those broken down.

[samsparro 10]

Wrong. There's a hard shoulder. They've just finished resurfacing and remarking the stretch south bound from 30 to 29a. It just needs to cones moving and that stretch is good to go.

 

---------- Post added 27-09-2015 at 16:37 ----------

 

 

And to the last bit - yes I have. Last week on the M1 near Luton if memory serves - it happens more often than you think.

 

I guarantee you 100% there is not going to be a hard shoulder between junction 28 and then all the way up to junction 35a... But hey what do I know...

 

This is a direct lift off the highways agency website in relation to the conversion to SMART motorways:

 

What is happening?

We are improving the M1 by making it a smart motorway between junctions 28 and 31. Smart motorways help relieve congestion by using technology to vary speed limits. They also allow the hard shoulder to be fully converted to a permanent running lane to create additional capacity. They deliver these benefits at a significantly lower cost than conventional motorway widening and with less impact on the environment during construction.

 

That's the point of SMART motorways, it's all lane running all the time.

 

MANAGED motorways involve the use of the hard shoulder in peak times, then it reverts back to a hard shoulder when not required...

[wb212 10]

Glad to see a good discussion going, can anybody who has travelled through the stretch I indicated in my initial post at the M1 Junction 34 Southbound?.

 

If the cameras are not active then should it be ok?

 

Regards in advance.

[tinfoilhat 11]

I guarantee you 100% there is not going to be a hard shoulder between junction 28 and then all the way up to junction 35a... But hey what do I know...

 

This is a direct lift off the highways agency website in relation to the conversion to SMART motorways:

 

What is happening?

We are improving the M1 by making it a smart motorway between junctions 28 and 31. Smart motorways help relieve congestion by using technology to vary speed limits. They also allow the hard shoulder to be fully converted to a permanent running lane to create additional capacity. They deliver these benefits at a significantly lower cost than conventional motorway widening and with less impact on the environment during construction.

 

That's the point of SMART motorways, it's all lane running all the time.

 

MANAGED motorways involve the use of the hard shoulder in peak times, then it reverts back to a hard shoulder when not required...

 

They're going to have to repaint that line then. We'll see if they do.

[samsparro 10]

Not me that's forgetting, all been covered in the numerous risk analysis and collision reviews done over the last decade - Refuges can be a maximum of a mile apart, in reality, they are generally closer because of the space they require interferes with other roadside structures - so on average, a driver is 800m from a refuge, some will be more, some less - a car will travel 31 metres a second at 70mph, the average person will take several seconds to figure out that a noise needs attention, the Highway Code uses 96m as a guide for emergency stops, in reality most cars will stop much quicker but will obviously roll substantially further. As I said before, breakdowns are rare, just 10% of all hardshoulder stops, of these, many will not require an immidiate stop, a blowout will, as will a steering failure, both of these would probably end up with a vehicle stranded in any lane - the smart motorway helps these people in realtime monitoring of traffic around - yes, there are risks in the immediate aftermath of a live lane stop, but that's the same for non-smart too. Equipment monitors for stationary vehicles, the typical dive to lane can be closed immediately, but also, so can any other lane that has a stationary vehicle.

 

 

 

Evidence has demonstrated that this is not the case - smart means monitored, there is the data to demonstrate that people don't just stop in live lanes. Refuges have detection equipment too, so help can be dispatched quicker than on a normal motorway environment.

 

 

 

Hard shoulders are full of debris - it's not untypical for a motorway policing vehicle to get a puncture every week through hard shoulder use - smart motorways can be used to clear a lane by closing it, lanes 3 & 4 are also typically used by cars and vans, these are narrower and combined with hardened central reserves, space is made by emergency vehicles when a lane closure is not available - and remember, many sections of smart motorway have the hard shoulder closed for much of the day and night, running as a standard three lane plus hard shoulder motorway.

 

 

 

Closed lanes on smart motorways are enforced - a driver ignoring this will get a ticket - can't recall if it's s points offence - the message will soon get around. As for emergency services - see above, they make space, can use closed lanes or the hard shoulder that's closed for at least three quarters of the day.

 

 

 

Hard shoulders are dangerous places to be, regardless of working or a breakdown... Smart motorways are designed to specifically reduce risks for both workers and users.

 

 

 

Yes, which is what smart motorways are designed to detect, to actively close the lane and protect the area behind the stationary vehicle. Risks are reduced, but you cannot remove all risks, even with a hard shoulder - there are dozens killed each year in hard shoulder collisions, mostly people working or trying to help those broken down.

 

That's the thing about Internet forums, usually people disagree with each other!!! I disagree with you, you disagree with me. Time will tell...

 

---------- Post added 27-09-2015 at 18:04 ----------

 

They're going to have to repaint that line then. We'll see if they do.

 

http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/road-projects/m1-junctions-28-31/

 

Have a look. It's all approved. Next week they are opening junction 30 to 31 back as a 'normal' motorway for a short period to allow the rest of the project to catch up (there has been issues with the concrete central reserve, you might have noticed that around Woodall services they have been taking it out and replacing it?). So the stretch your thinking of will be that, so for a short while it will be 3 lanes plus a hard shoulder. Once the SMART motorway is ready, bye bye hard shoulder...

[Haydn1971 10]

That's the thing about Internet forums, usually people disagree with each other!!! I disagree with you, you disagree with me. Time will tell...

 

Fine by me, I'll get back to designing the things ;-)

[samsparro 10]

Fine by me, I'll get back to designing the things ;-)

 

And I will get back to working on them when they come in :-)))

 

Designing and operating, two completely different ways of thinking...

[Haydn1971 10]

Designing and operating, two completely different ways of thinking...

 

Operational need is a huge factor in design, but you don't want to discuss, just dismiss with your opinion that has been evidentially demonstrated to be out of touch with what is actually happening on the network.

[samsparro 10]

Operational need is a huge factor in design, but you don't want to discuss, just dismiss with your opinion that has been evidentially demonstrated to be out of touch with what is actually happening on the network.

 

But if your designing them then your going to think they are ok and safe, otherwise you wouldn't put your name to them?

 

And don't forget, unlike you allude to in your post above, this section is full on 4 lane running at all times, no hard shoulder full stop. You get a puncture/breakdown at 7pm on a cold, wet December evening, your stopping in a live lane whether you like it or not. That HGV travelling at 60mph that doesn't see you till the last minute isn't going to stop in 96 metres...

 

Plus, I'm not the only one to voice concerns:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-25885704

 

And my big big concern on the stretch of M1 from J28 to J31 is that (due to penny pinching) the full overhead gantries are virtually none existent, and there are only smaller gantries at the side of the road. The M42 and M62 have many more full overhead gantries...

 

And as we previously agreed on, people disagree. Facts and figures are no substitute for dealing with real life incidents on the motorway....

Edited September 27, 2015 by samsparro
Add text

[beady 10]

Fine by me, I'll get back to designing the things ;-)

 

Hi Haydn - if you're one of the team that's designing these so-called improvement and causing so much grief to thousands of folks daily over very prolonged periods, are you in any position to comment on the points I raised a few posts above?

Would like any answers /comments so that I can at least rationalise in my mind why such madness is being allowed to go on and on!

[Haydn1971 10]

But if your designing them then your going to think they are ok and safe, otherwise you wouldn't put your name to them?

 

To be fair, I used to have concerns like yourself, on the face of it, losing the hardshoulder sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, but on working through the evidence myself, all the new safety features that come with smart motorways make clear to me, that there are real benefits to user safety

 

And don't forget, unlike you allude to in your post above, this section is full on 4 lane running at all times, no hard shoulder full stop. You get a puncture/breakdown at 7pm on a cold, wet December evening, your stopping in a live lane whether you like it or not. That HGV travelling at 60mph that doesn't see you till the last minute isn't going to stop in 96 metres...

 

There are indeed some sections of smart motorway that work as ALR (all lane running) - that doesn't change the ability to close lanes actively with the overhead signs - as I've said above, not all risks are remove, but risks are reduced, which is good.

 

Plus, I'm not the only one to voice concerns:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-25885704

 

Like any change, there will always be a voice of objection - that's the great thing about living in a democratic country - the main objections as I understand it of SY Police are around the lack of street lighting, the all lane running and the "lite" approach to overhead signs - at the time of their initial objections all of which were new ideas to smart motorways (then called managed motorways) - I'm not in a position to speak for Highways England publicly, that's not my job, but I am employed by one of their consultants to prepare detailed reports in the various stages of a project (project control framework stages to clarify), I'm also not involved in the M1 32-35a scheme... However, smart motorway schemes on non-street lit roads are being rolled out elsewhere (recent evidence suggests no difference in collision rates on lit and unlit motorways), all lane running is being rolled out elsewhere, as is the lighter approach to the use of gantries - time will tell, but it's clear to me, that these ideas aren't just rolled out without extensive work to review various data and ensure measures are in place to mitigate against concerns identified - failures in the control systems could be viewed by the coroner as a corporate failing, which could ultimately end up with senior figures being tried for corporate manslaughter - nobody wants that at all.

 

And my big big concern on the stretch of M1 from J28 to J31 is that (due to penny pinching) the full overhead gantries are virtually none existent, and there are only smaller gantries at the side of the road. The M42 and M62 have many more full overhead gantries...

 

Full width overhead gantries are required downstream of any entry to a smart motorway, subsequent instructions are provided by overhead cantilever signs that sit over lanes 1 & 2, these are high enough to be seen by all four lanes. I'm not convinced by the penny pinching claim, the original managed motorway had all the bells and whistles because the Highways Agency were concerned about the new idea, as the deployment becomes more widespread, it's become evident that many of the original ideas are unnecessary and new display technologies have come along that can do all that a gantry can do in a smaller roadside unit - cantilevered signs are still eyewateringly expensive like gantries, partly because of the huge foundations to resist turning forces but are easier to maintain.

 

And as we previously agreed on, people disagree. Facts and figures are no substitute for dealing with real life incidents on the motorway....

 

I disagree, opinion is based upon one persons view, evidence is based upon a collection of views with less bias - facts drive everything we do, you wouldn't buy a new car on just the opinion of some stranger down the pub, you'd check your car reviews, talk to the bloke that services your current car, ask several people, browse a few Internet forums, go try a few out. It's building an evidence case without really recognising that you are doing so.