The greatest threat to Israel?

[unbeliever 10]

The problem with Iran, or anyone else blowing up Israel with nukes is that there are so many sacred muslim sites within Israel you would destroy those as well.

 

I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to destroy some of the most holy sites in Islam

 

That's a good point.

But I think you'll find that there's no limit to the stupidity of Islamic fundamentalists.

[Celia Paul 10]

The greatest threat to Israel is Israel. All this hype about Iran is just that, media hype.

 

If Israel have so many Nukes why are they scared? Why would Iran launch just one (or a few) that they could possibly build as their country would be obliterated very quickly before much damage is done to Israel. Tactically it just does not add up.

Israel isn't scared of the Arabs they've whupped them enough times already.

 

The truth is that there are so many bonkers Arabs that they are capable of any stupid action.

[blake 10]

actually compared to the numerous Jewish and Christian holy sites in both Israel/Jerusalem and the West Bank, there are not so many Islamic ones on the same kind of scale and none at all I can think of in Israel itself except Jerusalem. There is really only the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, this is a significant Islamic holy site, but it is not on the same level as the Western Wall or the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which are the #1 holy sites in Judaism and Christianity respectively. The Dome of the Rock is said to be the 3rd holiest site in Islam after Mecca and Medina, it is a very old construction (built in 691 AD), however it is more a symbol of contemporary Palestinian Arab nationalism than a truly holy site like those other two close by and did not achieve major prominence until fairly recently. It fell into a really bad state of disrepair during the Ottoman occupation (who of course were Muslims themselves), and didn't get a much needed facelift until the 1930s. Muslims basically never used to make religous pilgrimages to Jerusalem like Jews and Christians would. Jerusalem is not unimportant to Muslims, but it is never mentioned in the Qu'ran once. It is just less holy to Muslims than it is to Jews and Christians.

 

Saddam had no compunction in firing scud missiles over Jerusalem towards Tel Aviv in 1990, any one of them could have fallen short and damaged holy sites in Jerusalem's old city.

Edited July 28, 2015 by blake

[unbeliever 10]

actually compared to the numerous Jewish and Christian holy sites in both Israel/Jerusalem and the West Bank, there are not so many Islamic ones on the same kind of scale and none at all I can think of in Israel itself. There is really only the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, this is a significant Islamic holy site, but it is not on the same level as the Western Wall or the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which are the #1 holy sites in Judaism and Christianity respectively. The Dome of the Rock is said to be the 3rd holiest site in Islam after Mecca and Medina, it is a very old construction (built in 691 AD), however it is more a symbol of contemporary Palestinian Arab nationalism than a truly holy site like those other two close by and did not achieve major prominence until fairly recently. It fell into a really bad state of disrepair during the Ottoman occupation (who of course were Muslims themselves), and didn't get a much needed facelift until the 1930s. Muslims basically never used to make religous pilgrimages to Jerusalem like Jews and Christians would. Jerusalem is not unimportant to Muslims, but it is never mentioned in the Qu'ran once. It is just less holy to Muslims than it is to Jews and Christians.

 

Saddam had no compunction in firing scud missiles over Jerusalem towards Tel Aviv in 1990, any one of them could have fallen short and damaged holy sites in Jerusalem's old city.

 

So nothing in terms of holy sites to stop them from nuking Tel Aviv.

I did suspect as much and I appreciate you saving me the research time.

[blake 10]

I'm not saying the Dome and Al Aqsa is not important to Muslims at all, I was surprised to find a group of Iranian visitors up there myself in the 1990s. But they were visiting the site not just because it is an important Islamic site and superb mosque but also because it is such a keystone of the Israel-Palestine issue. In the 1800s nobody from Iran would have visited the site ever. Whereas Jews from abroard would visit the Western Wall and Christians would visit the supposed site of the resurrection, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Muslims basically go to Saudi for their pilgrimmages, not Jerusalem.

 

also remember Palestinian and Israeli Muslims are almost all Sunni, whereas all the Iranian leadership is Shia. Iran's minority Sunnis never get anywhere in public life.

Edited July 28, 2015 by blake

[apelike 10]

So nothing in terms of holy sites to stop them from nuking Tel Aviv.

 

No, just the lack of Nukes to do so.

[blake 10]

the Iranians are not going to nuke Israel any time soon but they do have advanced rockets that unnoposed could pulverise Tel Aviv and other Israeli population centres 100 times more than Saddam tried to in 1990. Iran are not just a threat to only Israel. All the other Middle East countries that are not Iranian allies, and especially the Saudis and Egypt, not just Israel, opposed the recent deal, and very unusually both the Israeli and Arab lobbies are working furiously on the same side to try to get the US Congress to block the bill. However they will probably fail.

[geared 317]

It's a weird time we live in where Iran appears to be somewhat of a moderate in comparison to other countries.

 

It would be nice for Iran to change their attitude somewhat and make closer relations to the west, before the revolution ties were very close.

[apelike 10]

It's a weird time we live in where Iran appears to be somewhat of a moderate in comparison to other countries.

 

It would be nice for Iran to change their attitude somewhat and make closer relations to the west, before the revolution ties were very close.

 

Yes but under the shah corruption was rife and money was diverted for personal gain.

[geared 317]

Yes but under the shah corruption was rife and money was diverted for personal gain.

 

and under the current regime....................

[apelike 10]

and under the current regime....................

 

Difficult to tell exactly but I'm sure its only a fraction of the $billions the Shah and his Pahlavi clan made. Under his regime corruption and also the drug trade, especially heroine was a good way to gain wealth. All that collapsed because of the revolution and was one reason why the revolution started in the first place.

[blake 10]

to return to the actual topic which is about the religous vs. secular faultline in Israeli society, it is definitely one of the, if not the 'greatest threat(s)' Israel faces.

 

a few months ago I was in south east Asia and came across a couple of Israeli seculars at a bar in a scuba-diving resort where they were on holiday. One of them was in his mid 30s, the other was a young lad who as I saw at a glance was getting ready to go into the army the next week. We started discussing things (Israelis are always ready to talk/discuss/argue ; it is one of their features as a nationality). Like most seculars they were pretty annoyed at the increased religiosity of the country, complaining that religous people didn't do enough, they were expected to pay for them to indulge themselves, and so on. I said Israel is a young country but if it is around long enough they will presumably face the same kind of threats other countries have faced, like the prospect of a civil war. After all most countries have had a civil war of some sort, like the English civil war, American civil war, why not - decades from now - the Israeli civil war? Is that possible? Of course it is. Over time, it's very possible.

 

I said that in the future it is not totally, utterly inconceivable that what happened in Algeria in the 1990s might happen in Israel in the far future. Religous parties make electoral gains over time and finally win an election. The Army, dominated by seculars, refuses to accept result and stages coup. Civil war results. This is not going to happen next year or even in the next generation or two generations. But in the longer term, it is not quite a long shot as all that.