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Hillsbro and orgreave.what do you think

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I'd much rather the time and money was spent getting truth about the Hillsborough disaster then banging on about Ogreave again.

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I'd rather neither were dragged on and on and on.

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I'd much rather the time and money was spent getting truth about the Hillsborough disaster then banging on about Ogreave again.

 

Ogreave was a dust-up between some angry miners and the police, neither side came out smelling of roses but ultimately the damage was minimal.

 

96 people lost their life in Hillsborough, they had done nothing wrong, they were not there to cause trouble and the police coverup blamed the fans for the disaster, it's a total disgrace and still a stain on a very battered SYP reputation.

 

You are correct. Those 96 victims of this tragic event did nothing wrong. However, the drunked yobbos who turned up without tickets, created mayhem around the streets of Hillsborough, caused damage to peoples property around the ground and who pushed and shoved and ran around the stadium to get to the kop did plenty wrong.

 

The police are not blameless in this mess. Any cover up should also be publically apologised for.

 

However, seeing these scousers on tv year afteryear banging on as if their own were completely innocent makes my blood boil. SOME of the Liverpool fans and their subsequent behaviour caused and commenced what became this tragic event. The big question is, if the fans weren't behaving like animals (which I absolutely believe they were) would the police have made such a mistake.

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i just wish a line could be drawn under both events,and take a leaf out of bradfords book, they have a memorial service and thats it, they dont go on about the fire. does any one know what is the cost so far on the hillsbro enquiries, money that could have been used for better things

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timeh hate to admit it but I agree with you and the previous poster.

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i am interested to know what the feeling s, are on here about the enquiry after enquiry, and the money that it has cost and we still dont seem to get any further to a final closure. could the money have been put to better use say building a hospital or helping out charities in both citys, should this go on and on each year, what do other members think?

 

Learn from mistakes and move on, otherwise we'll be investigating 2010's incidents in twenty years time.

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I'm sick of it all, I think complaining is in the scouse bloodline and no matter how much compensation is paid out, no matter how many apologies are heard, this will not stop until every single last family member has died out.

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It's a good question, but the truth is always important, and corruption needs to be exposed.

 

It doesn't need exposing from the 1970/80's at all. The expenses going into some of these historic enquiries is astronomical. Efforts should be made to stamp out current corruption or issues. Stop shaking cupboards looking for skeletons that are long gone and have no effect on current issues.

 

The police today wouldn't (and don't) police football matches or demonstrations the same as they did in the 70/80's. And too many people are judging today's police forces on matters that happened 20/30 years ago.

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Yea we should totally judge SYP on their recent performance

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oh hang on a minute........................

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There's a long standing argument about if you want to resolve an issue then you need to get to the root causes of the issue and not just treat the symptoms. I feel that this would also have been the more correct approach to take with South Yorkshire Police and it's handling of these events, as it is fairly easy to argue a timeline of events has lead to escalating corruption, with more people becoming victims at each major incidence. Also, any 'junior' officers at the earlier events who are still employed in the police service anywhere in the country have now probably risen to positions of authority by promotion over the years. If they think they can do stuff that they can 'get away with' as it has happened through the majority of their careers then we are destined to continue having major corruption and issues as this generation's management will influence the next generations policing policies.

 

Timeline of events:

1) UK winter of discontent 1978-1979, the government can't keep the lights on because of unionist action during a Labour minority government. This event helps trigger an ousting of the then Labour Prime Minister James Callaghan, and elects a Conservative government under Margaret Thatcher. Being first female Prime Minister, she realises that she needs to ensure that she isn't considered weak because of her gender.

 

2) 1982 Falklands war victory - Thatcher helps solidify her 'iron lady' persona with the general public and the world at large.

 

3)1984 now, 5 years after Thatcher comes to power and believing that she has to quash the unions in order to keep control of the country, move it forward with privatisation of most of the UKs major industries and thereby cut the liabilities and expenditure whilst recouping more tax revenues, Thatcher decides to decimate UK coal and start closing/privatising Coal Mines. SYP have to be seen to be supporting the government, so along with divisions from 9 other police forces they then storm the striking miners picket lines at Orgreve and thus get away with beating up a load of people in a field. The media presence that is present at this incident both stokes the reactions of the police on the day and the aftermath. It was an event that was choreographed to demonstrate that the strikes would be broken, it was the first time that Police had come out in force with Riot gear. The jovial environment at the start of the day (reports of Miners playing a friendly football game) apparently only became a riot after the police turned up - screened video footage appears to confirm this. Allegations have been made that a massive cover-up then ensued, backed by local and central government. The number of casualties were then used to try and justify the use of force and portray that the Police were the victims of the unruly miners riot.

 

Orgreve: Civilian casualties (Miners) 28, Police casualties 41.

 

(Yorkshire Post news article from 1st July 2015 re: Orgreve)

 

4)1989 now, 5 years after riot events at Orgreve and a massive crush occurs due to inexperienced and inappropriate crowd management techniques at an FA cup Final at Hillsborough. To alleviate panicked crushing conditions outside of the ground an order is given to open a side gate which compounds crushing that is already occurring inside the grounds. No major incident codeword is given at an appropriate time, police in the grounds without proper co-ordination and communication initially misdiagnosing the situation as a pitch invasion attempt and try to push some of the people back into the pens. The incident is at first thought to be football hooliganism and rioting, and this fits into a narrative that has built up throughout the 80s. Ambulances are left queueing up outside the grounds. Police leak details of rioting behaviour to the national press and proceed to cover up certain events and doctor their own reports into the incident.

Civilian fatalities: 96

 

5)Ambiguous start date to present day: Conservatively estimated reports of up to 1400 Rotherham children have been abused over many years whilst the police and local authorities while knowing about the problems had been ignoring the issue to focus on other easier targets of crime statistics in order to maintain league tables and statistics which fed into allowances of central government funding. Reports are leaked to the press at a time when national emotion regarding abuse is high, after revelations of historical abuse by high profile people primarily in the media, but also in other positions of power and authority (e.g MPs) An argument is made that numerous times to various police forces over a number of years since at least the 1970s, people had been reported to the police but very little further action was taken. A narrative is built that police corruption and police/government collusion has been rife, systemic and endemic for a number of years.

 

South Yorkshire police are portrayed as the worst and most corrupt force in the UK due to a series of high profile incidents. Although society at large has changed in this overall time frame, there will probably be people in the force who have worked through this 30 or so year time and have influence to shape society 'on the ground'. Because you as a citizen reading these threads are a lot more likely to interact with police personnel on the street on a day-to-day basis than you are with people from central government/the council, it is important that any allegations of corruption are investigated thoroughly in order that trust is rebuilt. If innocent victims of crime do not currently trust in the police then crimes will go unreported and perpetually get worse, at the same time the police statistics of crime will look better at a time of cuts. Nobody but criminals will benefit from this situation and society will be all the worse for it.

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Both are totally different scenarios and even both can be connected police ineptitude ,there is no comparison.

 

But hey,its great to crticise events that took place over 25 years ago.

 

Hilsbro was an absolute tragedy.The Police got it so tragically wrong and made poor decisions, but worse of all to condone a cover up.

What were they thinking?

Its easy years after the event to criticise with hindsight and changes in legislation but 25 years have elapsed for us to be in a position to point at people.The police didn`t cause the crushes but made what they thought were decisions to stop fatalities. We now know they fell far short of acceptable.

Police it seems were in a no win situation.

 

Orgreave was purely Political.Those of you on SF who read about it ,I assure you the reality was far worse .Just look at the legacy left to South Yorkshire after that final battle ,which co incidentally took place to secure jobs and pits.

How has it left Engineering,Steel production ,and coal mining.

Well the last two pits in the Yorkshire area will cease by the end of the year( Hatfield within a week).Meadowhall covers what once was engineering excellence,and Magna (formerly Steel,Peach and Tozer,or STEELOS as it was known)now used for various functions.

 

But then look how these instances have affected our culture and attitude.

30 years after both these events we are still affected by them.

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I'd much rather the time and money was spent getting truth about the Hillsborough disaster then banging on about Ogreave again.

 

Ogreave was a dust-up between some angry miners and the police, neither side came out smelling of roses but ultimately the damage was minimal.

 

96 people lost their life in Hillsborough, they had done nothing wrong, they were not there to cause trouble and the police coverup blamed the fans for the disaster, it's a total disgrace and still a stain on a very battered SYP reputation.

 

With regards to Orgreave, I'd like to know about the role of the BBC in editing the footage to show miners charging at the police (those who were there at the day said it was the other way round).

Who at the BBC did this and on whose orders, and did NO 10 Downing Street know.

 

The miners strike was a seminal moment of the 1980s, and the media helped shape public opinion about it. the BBC are supposed to be impartial.

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