EU Referendum - How will you vote?

[tzijlstra 11]

Just watched the sky news section on possible Brexit consequences, which is repeated at 11.30am, this is about the most balanced item on the threats/ promises from both sides that I have seen.

Got to admit project fear was even getting to me but having watched this I feel a lot more confident about still voting out, the best bit was about the possible recession explained in lay man terms.

Worth a watch.

 

Did you even read what I said in reply to your earlier post?

[unbeliever 10]

I agree totally that a progressive taxation system is fairer than a regressive or flat-rate one. But people who express your views very often argue in favour of a regressive or flat-rate system.

 

I also agree with your theory of "From each according to his (or her) ability, to each according to his contribution". But, again, that's one of the basic principles of socialism (actual socialism that is, of the type that informed policy in Britain and beyond in the post-war years, not the cartoon version that we're fed by the media), and emphatically not of the political ideology that you believe yourself to be aligned with.

 

I'm aligned with the people who actually implement policies I approve of. Not with those who talk about them. I voted for Labour in the late '90s and early 00's. I didn't get what I voted for.

Large amounts of money were collected from the people, in a not remotely progressive fashion, and largely wasted. Still more money was borrowed at a time when no government in their right mind would have increased borrowing and also wasted. It was a crude and corrupt con to buy peoples' votes using their own money.

Not going to make that mistake again.

Edited June 21, 2016 by unbeliever

[panzer1 10]

Just read it. Got to admit then do not see the point in article 50, would appear that it was put in as a fop to eu general public. You can leave but if you do we will absolutely hammer you.

Obviously I have heard the threats from various eu members/ heads of govts but that just puts my back up and makes me more determined to vote out.

The most balanced has been Tusk, especially recently saying whatever the result the eu will take it as a wake up call and look closely at themselves. My only problem with tusk is he should have done more in daves renegotiation and obviously I believe the eu will change after all they don,t do stupid things like relocate every 6 months costing millions of they?.

[L00b 441]

Tzij, will openly admit I know not a lot about the matter but are you saying the Dutch would punish us by refusing to let us use Rotterdam hence making us use another port in another country, such a port may welcome that trade.

For the n-th time in here...in case of a Brexit vote, there's not going to be any "punishment", there's going to be negotiations about what happens between the UK and the EU and its remaining member states post-Brexit.

 

The UK will ask for its cake and eating it (this is pretty much what the Brexit 'plans' currently amount to, ignoring entirely the respective self-interests of the other 27 EU member states and positing instead that the UK is 'owed' best trading partner status).

 

Each of the remaining 27 EU member states will then tell the UK how far and how much it can swing, depending upon how their respective self-interests balance with what the UK wants.

 

Some will give more ground to the UK, some will give less ground to the UK, and the sum total at the end is that the UK won't be getting its cake and eating it.

 

What the UK won't be getting, you can see as "punishment" if you want. Me, I'd just call that toys thrown out of the pram. Or a cut nose.

[unbeliever 10]

Just read it. Got to admit then do not see the point in article 50, would appear that it was put in as a fop to eu general public. You can leave but if you do we will absolutely hammer you.

Obviously I have heard the threats from various eu members/ heads of govts but that just puts my back up and makes me more determined to vote out.

The most balanced has been Tusk, especially recently saying whatever the result the eu will take it as a wake up call and look closely at themselves. My only problem with tusk is he should have done more in daves renegotiation and obviously I believe the eu will change after all they don,t do stupid things like relocate every 6 months costing millions of they?.

 

They're bluffing. It's really rather obvious.

[panzer1 10]

Funny Loob but they sound like threats to me.

 

---------- Post added 21-06-2016 at 10:06 ----------

 

But I suppose we have nothing to offer or nothing that the others want in these negotiations.

[unbeliever 10]

Do they? Or is the argument that it is not behaving in a democratic fashion that is creating economic uncertainty? Because that is what it is - the Remain camp is lying to the public, without a proper exit plan, which is creating the uncertainty.

 

Perhaps you ought to have a good long think about that.

 

Nope. You can always criticise the way campaigns are conducted. Economic uncertainty is the inevitable product of democracy. Up until this referendum, all right-minded people understood this and accepted it. Perhaps we should cancel the 2020 election if economic stability trumps democracy?

 

Not only is a referendum a fundamentally good thing in terms of government accountability, it was in the government's manifesto.

I expect that remain is going to win this referendum anyway. It was quite obviously far and away the right moral choice to hold the referendum.

Edited June 21, 2016 by unbeliever

[L00b 441]

Yes, it was dispelling the myth pushed by the In campaign they these companies would leave the UK if we leave the EU, each company has said they will not leave the UK, it doesn't say that they support Brexit, it just says they won't leave the UK if we Brexit.

Here is the relevant extract of the leaflet in question.

 

Here is Nissan's corporate statement about the referendum.

 

To be clear, that's corporate speak for "we'll keep the plants running in the UK so long as they remain competitive, but we're reserving all our options about the future, and make no commitment whatsoever about further investments in the UK."

 

Do I need to explain to you what happens to a manufacturing plant when investment taps are turned off? Does that put jobs at risk?

Funny Loob but they sound like threats to me.

At the risk of offending you (again), it doesn't matter one bit what they 'sound' to you.

 

If you can't understand that, in any negotiation, there's always at least two sides, each pulling the proverbial blanket to itself in its own self-interest, I'm afraid there's no helping your understanding further.

Edited June 21, 2016 by L00b

[panzer1 10]

No offence taken but seeing as I am voting as are millions of others, these perceived threats may have the opposite effect intended. It would have been nice if the remain camp had come up with some nice reasons for staying rather than doom and gloom and threats.

[Tomjames 10]

Brexit is so unsupported by business, economists and other interest groups that now Nissan is going to take legal action and Toyota is considering legal action against the Leave campaign that, completely without their permission, used the logos on their leaflet claiming support from two of the biggest private employers in the country.

 

 

Good job leave, just keep adding the lies. It seems to me that the self-destruct button has well and truly been pushed in the last week.

 

What's saddest is leave are willing to play with people's jobs and lives in the face of all reason and available evidence on the notion we are going to win back "sovereignty" and go back in time 50 years to being little England.

 

They will do it at ANY cost to the British public. Caught in the farage-gove-boris traktor beam!

[Eater Sundae 12]

Okay, I work part time and earn just over 7k p.a. I've always thought the EU was all about big business and for them, keeping us in the EU provides an abundance of labour which in turn keeps wages low, isn't it in the interest of big business for us to stay in, obviously. My D.I.L is also on minimum wage she is a carer and has been working in the same job for over 10 years. My mum did the same job many years ago when it was deemed an important job and the salary was good, what's happened since then?

 

I'm also fed up of the remain campaigns constant arrogant sneering attitude towards people who aren't big earners, an example was a thread deleted last night.

 

Interestingly I just read this which kind of fits with what I believe.

 

 

 

http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/about-us/

 

I believe there would be little hope of protecting the low paid if we leave the EU. There would still be an influx of people from poorer counties which will depress wages. The best bet would be the natural socialist tendencies of the EU to try to defend the lower paid and create an even yet aspirational playing field. If we leave, I believe that the way forward will generally be a Tory one (more so if Scotland then leaves the UK in order to remain in the EU). That will include a lower paid underclass and minimal worker benefits.

 

Either way, we are in a global trading market. China, India and others can throw a lot of cheap labour at any problem. We cannot ignore it. I don't believe a race to the bottom is in our best interests. Our best interests are served by aspiring to be better. I think that is better achieved by being in the EU. A lot of countries with a common purpose and defending against a race to the bottom.

[MobileB 10]

Indeed.

 

But they have a much better of chance of remaining competitive with ongoing investment, than without. Wouldn't you say?

It isn't.

 

The leaflet is to make a case for the Leave vote, not the Remain vote.

 

The leaflet does not convey or even suggest that jobs are at risk if the UK stays or leaves.

 

The leaflet conveys that Nissan, Toyota, Airbus <etc.> jobs are not at risk if the UK leaves, because the companies have stated that they are staying in the UK.

 

It's a misrepresentation of these companies' statements, which are all entirely silent about maintaining all current jobs in case of a Leave vote.

 

Legally speaking, Vote Leave looks toast on that one.

 

Even if the misrepresentation wasn't considered as such by the Court, they're fully caught on trade mark infringement regardless (and passing off, which I'm quietly confident Nissan's Counsel will have lobbed in for good measure).

 

And we're talking "well known marks" here, not little relatively unknown SME name or product brands. As I said before, big numbers.

 

I do this for a living, so have a fair idea of the ins and outs involved, down to procedural timescales and nitty-gritty. But you knew that, of course

 

Don't worry , Brexit will repeal any trade mark laws. It will be open free trade to all. Genuine Fake, Genuine Fake and all that .........

 

Did see Mickey Grove this morning on breakfast tv. Maybe just my impression but he did look a little broken and resigned to defeat I thought.