Electronic information at tram/bus stops

[Cyclone 10]

Because it isn't the same system.

[the fonz 10]

Because it isn't the same system.

 

Thanks for that

[Cyclone 10]

Ask a stupid question, get an obvious answer...

[the fonz 10]

Ask a stupid question, get an obvious answer...

 

Thanks again.

 

Why cant the bus system which works be used on the trams?

 

And before you just repeat yourself cant the bus system be adapted to work on the trams so the tram system can at least display real time information (i appreciate this wont work for the text messages).

Edited January 8, 2018 by the fonz

[nightrider 13]

He said that the response from Supertram was that they don’t have the ability to update the boards, not that it wasn’t their responsibility.

 

don't they have any ability to put pressure to either fix the system or have it disabled, given it does not work?

 

As a customer its not good enough super tram just says "not our problem".

[Cyclone 10]

Thanks again.

 

Why cant the bus system which works be used on the trams?

 

And before you just repeat yourself cant the bus system be adapted to work on the trams so the tram system can at least display real time information (i appreciate this wont work for the text messages).

 

I don't know the details of the systems, but presumably at the analysis phase of the project they looked at what already existed and decided to do something else (hopefully for valid reasons).

So to now use the bus system would presumably mean ripping out and throwing away the system that has been installed.

 

I've never seen any signs for live information on buses though, where are they and how do they work?

[northernboy 13]

Many bus stops, particularly in the city centre, have the live displays. Some have a 2 or 3 line LED display, others gave "proper" monitors.

If the bus is coming and trackable it shows number of minutes until it's due. Otherwise it just shows the timetabled time, which usually means the bus isn't coming.

The same info can be viewed on the Web, e.g. http://gettheresooner.travelsouthyorkshire.com/MobileNaptan.aspx?mode=mobile&chkBus=on&txtSMSnumber=37026701&hdnSearchType=searchbySMSnumber&hdnSearchValue=37026701&hdnMode=bus

[Hook 10]

Thanks again.

 

Why cant the bus system which works be used on the trams?

 

And before you just repeat yourself cant the bus system be adapted to work on the trams so the tram system can at least display real time information (i appreciate this wont work for the text messages).

 

It works in a completely different way. In case you hadn’t noticed the trams run on rails and the buses on roads.

 

AFAIK as I know, and as I’ve previously explained in other posts the bus system uses GPS but the tram system doesn’t.

 

In order to control both the signals on the tram network and for the control room to track the location a serious of VIS loops are located in the four foot on both road and ballasted sections.

 

How the signs work is, as I understand it, as follows: (I’m going to use Birley Lane to Gleadless to illustrated it)

 

Birley Lane to Gleadless is timetabled for five minutes. The computer running the PIDS knows this.

 

1. Tram passes over the loop when departing Birley Lane. The PID system knows it takes 5 minutes, so displays 5mins at Gleadless.

2. Tram passes the loop at the junction of Fox Lane and White Lane and system updates to 4 mins.

Several things can now happen:

Scenario 1, no traffic.

3. Tram gets to White Lane tram stop and sits on loop, PID updates to 3 minutes away at Gleadless.

4. Tram travels down White Lane and PID time reduces accordingly.

5. Tram gets to end of White Lane and sits on the loop at the corner waiting for the lights to change. PID changes to DUE.

 

Scenario 2: Traffic.

3. Tram gets stuck in traffic at White Lane. Computer doesn’t take into account traffic so display may sit at four minutes for 5-10 minutes while the tram sits in traffic.

4. Tram gets to WHL stop, and the PID changes to 3 minutes.

5. Tram slowly continues along White Lane. PID system notices the tram is taking longer than usual and so extends the time to take into account this. PID at Gleadless may jump from 3 minutes to 8/9 minutes. Tram then rolls the loop at the end of White Lane, suddenly drops to DUE.

6. Tram pulls into Gleadless and a platform full of passengers are thinking “eh? What’s going on?”

 

Many things can get in the way as the tram travels between loops, such as slow loadings on platforms due to wheelchairs, high passenger volumes etc. Or other road users, signalling problems etc. Sometimes a loop will not pick a tram up, and so it might disappear from the boards and then reappear.

 

Trams displaying a time rather than an estimated arrival don’t track in real time, maybe because the driving is using a wrong code, a hardware fault on the tram, a communication problem between the tram system and the loops, or between the loops and the PID server, or because on the Citylink vehicles you can’t use a trackable code and so they always display a time. Once the time has been reached (usually +60seconds) the tram will disappear off the PID whether or not it has arrived.

 

The problem of course is that the PtE went for a cheap solution which has been attempted to be adapted for the old technology on the trams.

 

Although

 

---------- Post added 08-01-2018 at 16:42 ----------

 

don't they have any ability to put pressure to either fix the system or have it disabled, given it does not work?

 

As a customer its not good enough super tram just says "not our problem".

 

I’m not quite sure why you think Supertram wouldn’t b putting pressure on the PTE?

 

They do so in several ways, firstly: directly and behind the scenes which obviously you don’t see. Secondly, they do so by directing people who complain on Twitter to the PTE feedback form. You might interpret this as Supertram saying “not our problem” but it’s actually another way of putting pressure on the PTE. The more people who express their dissatisfaction at the system the more likely they are to do something about it.

[the fonz 10]

It works in a completely different way.

 

Thankyou, so if i have understood the Tram system has been designed to be more accurate than the Bus system?

 

Do the systems need to be so different?

 

Its seems like someone has tried to reinvent the wheel and failed.

[Cyclone 10]

Less accurate by the sounds of it.

 

GPS gives a realtime location, and traffic data is available to give a reasonable prediction of arrival.

Floor loops that mean a location is only updated periodically are less accurate.

[Hook 10]

Thankyou, so if i have understood the Tram system has been designed to be more accurate than the Bus system?

 

Do the systems need to be so different?

 

Its seems like someone has tried to reinvent the wheel and failed.

 

I have no idea what the design parameters were, although I suspect knowing the PTE as I do the primary objective was probably to be as ‘efficent’ As possible.

 

---------- Post added 08-01-2018 at 18:14 ----------

 

Less accurate by the sounds of it.

 

GPS gives a realtime location, and traffic data is available to give a reasonable prediction of arrival.

Floor loops that mean a location is only updated periodically are less accurate.

 

The problem of course is that while GPS is easy to adapt for buses as the GPS systems already exist. A tram based system would likely provide as the crow flies GPS estimates and this would probably be less reliable.

[Cyclone 10]

You mean the route planning part of it? Obviously the GPS portion just reports a location, whether it's a bus or a tram or a person.

 

Google can already do route planning that involves trains, so I can't imagine that trams would have been too difficult (for google)...

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/53.4159021,-1.5104519/Langsett+-+Primrose+View/@53.4058562,-1.5086387,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x4879788e24bf9257:0x7117a457d53fc18d!2m2!1d-1.48935!2d53.39577!3e3

 

In fact it can already tell you to catch the tram for a particular journey, and highlights it (this journey is all road, but try another one).

 

So I suspect that it could have been very easily integrated.

 

---------- Post added 08-01-2018 at 17:39 ----------

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Netherthorpe+Road/Sheffield/@53.3826,-1.4631448,18.12z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x487978817b46c331:0x20d41507ab7a227b!2m2!1d-1.48252!2d53.38474!1m5!1m1!1s0x4879829cc4a728d1:0x667bbc10736b8bf6!2m2!1d-1.46211!2d53.37823!3e3

 

That includes the off road section to the train station.