smiggs 10 #109 Posted February 22, 2015 It may not be a large proportion of the budget , but when the council are bleating on about cuts , wasting money on Politically Correct nonsense like this beggars belief . Sorry but even in the context of the so called "blackhole" in the council's budget even cancelling these services entirely would achieve nothing but it would mean that people whose first language is not English would not understand the services provided and potentially tie up frontline staff with these misunderstandings. You may find that these services are fully costed, to assist already stretched frontline staff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Blackbeard 10 #110 Posted February 22, 2015 nie mówimy o osobach odwiedzających na wakacje, pieniądze są marnowane na ludzi, którzy przychodzą tu mieszkać i są zbyt leniwi, aby nauczyć się języka kraju, w którym żyją w. nu vorbim de persoane care vizitează pentru sarbatori, bani se irosesc pe oamenii care vin să locuiască aici şi sunt prea leneşi pentru a învăţa limba ţării sunt locuiesc în. 우리가 휴가 위한 방문 하는 사람들에 대해 얘기 하지 않습니다, 그리고 돈을 살고 여기와 서 살고 있는 나라의 언어를 배울 수 게으른 사람들에 낭비 되 고 있다. aren't vIghel maH nuvpu' QI'lop vISuch, wasted Huch nuvpu' 'ej QuQ Ha' naDev yIn 'ej buD je Sep qaStaHvIS yIn chaH Hol ghoj. online translate seems to work fairly well = Penistone's post translated into Polish, Romanian, Korean and even Klingon. What a waste of money Of cause you can always trust computers to do any translations for you, or can you? The internet is full of examples of where it has gone wrong including a report about medicine labels translated in New York. "According to a new research study, computer programs that pharmacists depend on to translate prescription labels are prone to potentially dangerous errors. Examples of mistakes include the translation of “once a day” into “eleven times a day”; “by mouth” into “by the little”; and “two times” into “two kiss.” Study researcher Iman Sharif with the Nemours A.I. DuPont Hospital for Children says, “We’re not going to be able to reduce disparities in care if we cannot ensure that patients know how to use their medicines. Medication errors are a huge problem and this is just one venue where this happens, and I think a really important one.” Last year, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg signed legislation mandating that pharmacy chains offer translated labels to customers speaking any one of the seven top foreign languages spoken in the city. The survey conducted by Sharif and Dartmouth College researcher Julia Tse looked at 286 pharmacies in the Bronx and found that 75 percent provided labels translated into Spanish. Of those pharmacies providing translations, 86 percent used a computer program to translate the labels, while 11 percent used staff members and three percent employed professional translators. A 50-percent error rate was documented in 76 of the computer-generated labels, including 32 incomplete translations and six major spelling or grammatical mistakes. Sharif says that ideally pharmacies would have professional translators on staff to make sure that the labels are translated properly. She adds that accurate translation would be greatly simplified through the standardization of how doctors write prescriptions. She believes these are two issues that should be addressed in health care reform. In the meantime, Sharif urges non-English speakers to “Ask for a professional interpreter. Don’t just accept that you don’t speak English and therefore you don’t get to have information about your medicine.” From “Drug Label Accuracy Getting Lost in Translation” http://healthcareinterpreting.org/computer-translations-of-drug-labels-often-wrong/ I would not want my medical records computer interpreted, I have read some scientific reports translated by computer and they were complete gibberish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Dannyno 19 #111 Posted February 22, 2015 Spot on . we shouldnt be spending large sums of money translating for people who cannot be bothered to learn basic English when entering the country. I just think that's nasty. What about my point that basic English might not be sufficient for some things? In other words, people learning English still might need support. You're assuming "laziness", which sounds like prejudice to me. According to the 2011 Census, there were 490,407 people (over 3) out of a total of 532,164 people living in Sheffield whose main language was English. There were 15,681 people whose main language wasn't English, but who spoke English very well. A further 16,844 people didn't have English as their main language, but spoke English well. 7,753 people couldn't speak English well. And 1,479 people couldn't speak English. The census also tells us what people's main languages were. English: 490, 407 Welsh: 67 Irish Gaelic: 2 Scottish Gaelic: 0 Manx Gaelic: 0 Unspecified Gaelic: 4 Cornish: 0 Scots: 11 Gypsy/Traveller languages: 1 French: 922 Portuguese: 499 Spanish: 808 Italian: 358 German: 478 Polish: 2611 Slovak: 1244 Czech: 318 Romanian: 284 Lithuanian: 309 Latvian: 184 Hungarian: 291 Bulgarian: 166 Greek: 497 Dutch: 175 Swedish: 95 Danish: 45 Finnish: 41 Estonian: 41 Slovenian: 20 Maltese: 17 Other EU European: 29 Albanian: 194 Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian: 57 Ukranian: 46 Other Eastern European, non-EU: 3 Other northern European, non-EU: 49 Romani: 0 Yiddish: 0 Russian: 511 Turkish: 566 Arabic: 5043 Hebrew: 9 Kurdish: 960 Persian/Farsi: 1017 Pashto: 807 Other West/Central Asian: 97 Urdu: 4222 Hindi: 404 Panjabi: 2743 Pakistani Pahari (With Mirpuri and Potwari): 287 Bengali (With Sylheti and Chatgaya): 1515 Gujarati: 222 Marathi: 87 Telugu: 334 Tamil: 308 Malayalam: 303 Sinhala: 162 Nepalese: 39 Other South Asian Languages: 309 Mandarin Chinese 609 Cantonese Chinese 503 All Other Chinese 4439 Japanese 171 Korean 175 Vietnamese 78 Thai 195 Malay 492 Tagalog/Filipino 277 East Asian Language (All Other) 307 Oceanic/Australian languages: 2 North/South American languages: 1 Caribbean creole: 6 Amharic 201 Tigrinya 439 Somali 2074 Krio 9 Akan 61 Yoruba 91 Igbo 82 Swahili/Kiswahili 136 Luganda 16 Lingala 49 Shona 508 Afrikaans 20 Any Other Nigerian Language 55 West African Language (All Other) 122 African Language (All Other) 483 All Other Languages 132 Sign language: 240 ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 17:59 ---------- The list of languages listed there is just far too many, it would be interesting to know how many people in Sheffield speak each of those languages (e.g. over 50k, over a thousand, under a hundred etc)- and if they do feel they have to provide some translation services, limit it to the most popular 20 or so... So to pick out from the list I posted above: Albanian: 194 Amharic: 201 Arabic: 5043 Bengali: 1515 Bulgarian: 166 Burmese: not listed separately Cantonese: 503 Chinese: 609 (not sure if different from Mandarin below) Czech: 318 Dari (Afghan Persian)/Farsi: (counted together in stats): 1017 English: almost everyone French: 922 Hungarian: 291 Italian: 358 Karen (not listed separately) Kinyarwanda: (Rwanda) (not listed separately) Korean: 175 Kurdish: 960 Kurdish Sorani (not listed separately - included above?) Lingala: 49 Lithuanian: 309 Mandarin: 609 (different to Chinese above?) Nepali: 39 Oromo (Kenya, not listed separately) Pashto: 807 Polish: 2611 Portuguese: 499 Punjabi: 2743 Pustu (not listed separately) Roma: (not listed separately) Romani Gypsey: 1? Romanian: 284 Russian: 511 Slovak: 1244 Slovak Roma: (not listed separately) Somali: 2074 Spanish: 808 Swahili: 136 Thai: 195 Tigrinya: 439 Turkish: 566 Urdu: 4222 Vietnamese: 78 ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 18:07 ---------- Top 20 languages, English (English or Welsh if in Wales) 490407 Arabic 5043 All Other Chinese 4439 Urdu 4222 Panjabi 2743 Polish 2611 Somali 2074 Bengali (With Sylheti and Chatgaya) 1515 Slovak 1244 Persian/Farsi 1017 Kurdish 960 French 922 Spanish 808 Pashto 807 Mandarin Chinese 609 Turkish 566 Russian 511 Shona 508 Cantonese Chinese 503 Portuguese 499 If you don't count English, Greek sneaks in at the bottom with 497 speakers. Apparently the council don't translate into Greek. ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 18:12 ---------- So it looks like the target for translation is mainly going to be the people falling into these categories: 7,753 people couldn't speak English well. And 1,479 people couldn't speak English. That's an audience of 9232 people (aged over 3, of course translation/interpretation might be needed for under 3s). If the council don't translate into Greek, maybe that means the Greek speakers all speak English well. ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 18:15 ---------- Rounding the budget up to £700,000, and assuming that the target of translation is those 9232 people (which it might not be) that means expenditure of (rounding up) £76 per each of those people over 3 years, or slightly over £25 a year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
ormester101 10 #112 Posted February 22, 2015 I just think that's nasty. What about my point that basic English might not be sufficient for some things? In other words, people learning English still might need support. You're assuming "laziness", which sounds like prejudice to me. According to the 2011 Census, there were 490,407 people (over 3) out of a total of 532,164 people living in Sheffield whose main language was English. There were 15,681 people whose main language wasn't English, but who spoke English very well. A further 16,844 people didn't have English as their main language, but spoke English well. 7,753 people couldn't speak English well. And 1,479 people couldn't speak English. The census also tells us what people's main languages were. English: 490, 407 Welsh: 67 Irish Gaelic: 2 Scottish Gaelic: 0 Manx Gaelic: 0 Unspecified Gaelic: 4 Cornish: 0 Scots: 11 Gypsy/Traveller languages: 1 French: 922 Portuguese: 499 Spanish: 808 Italian: 358 German: 478 Polish: 2611 Slovak: 1244 Czech: 318 Romanian: 284 Lithuanian: 309 Latvian: 184 Hungarian: 291 Bulgarian: 166 Greek: 497 Dutch: 175 Swedish: 95 Danish: 45 Finnish: 41 Estonian: 41 Slovenian: 20 Maltese: 17 Other EU European: 29 Albanian: 194 Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian: 57 Ukranian: 46 Other Eastern European, non-EU: 3 Other northern European, non-EU: 49 Romani: 0 Yiddish: 0 Russian: 511 Turkish: 566 Arabic: 5043 Hebrew: 9 Kurdish: 960 Persian/Farsi: 1017 Pashto: 807 Other West/Central Asian: 97 Urdu: 4222 Hindi: 404 Panjabi: 2743 Pakistani Pahari (With Mirpuri and Potwari): 287 Bengali (With Sylheti and Chatgaya): 1515 Gujarati: 222 Marathi: 87 Telugu: 334 Tamil: 308 Malayalam: 303 Sinhala: 162 Nepalese: 39 Other South Asian Languages: 309 Mandarin Chinese 609 Cantonese Chinese 503 All Other Chinese 4439 Japanese 171 Korean 175 Vietnamese 78 Thai 195 Malay 492 Tagalog/Filipino 277 East Asian Language (All Other) 307 Oceanic/Australian languages: 2 North/South American languages: 1 Caribbean creole: 6 Amharic 201 Tigrinya 439 Somali 2074 Krio 9 Akan 61 Yoruba 91 Igbo 82 Swahili/Kiswahili 136 Luganda 16 Lingala 49 Shona 508 Afrikaans 20 Any Other Nigerian Language 55 West African Language (All Other) 122 African Language (All Other) 483 All Other Languages 132 Sign language: 240 ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 17:59 ---------- So to pick out from the list I posted above: Albanian: 194 Amharic: 201 Arabic: 5043 Bengali: 1515 Bulgarian: 166 Burmese: not listed separately Cantonese: 503 Chinese: 609 (not sure if different from Mandarin below) Czech: 318 Dari (Afghan Persian)/Farsi: (counted together in stats): 1017 English: almost everyone French: 922 Hungarian: 291 Italian: 358 Karen (not listed separately) Kinyarwanda: (Rwanda) (not listed separately) Korean: 175 Kurdish: 960 Kurdish Sorani (not listed separately - included above?) Lingala: 49 Lithuanian: 309 Mandarin: 609 (different to Chinese above?) Nepali: 39 Oromo (Kenya, not listed separately) Pashto: 807 Polish: 2611 Portuguese: 499 Punjabi: 2743 Pustu (not listed separately) Roma: (not listed separately) Romani Gypsey: 1? Romanian: 284 Russian: 511 Slovak: 1244 Slovak Roma: (not listed separately) Somali: 2074 Spanish: 808 Swahili: 136 Thai: 195 Tigrinya: 439 Turkish: 566 Urdu: 4222 Vietnamese: 78 ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 18:07 ---------- Top 20 languages, English (English or Welsh if in Wales) 490407 Arabic 5043 All Other Chinese 4439 Urdu 4222 Panjabi 2743 Polish 2611 Somali 2074 Bengali (With Sylheti and Chatgaya) 1515 Slovak 1244 Persian/Farsi 1017 Kurdish 960 French 922 Spanish 808 Pashto 807 Mandarin Chinese 609 Turkish 566 Russian 511 Shona 508 Cantonese Chinese 503 Portuguese 499 If you don't count English, Greek sneaks in at the bottom with 497 speakers. Apparently the council don't translate into Greek. ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 18:12 ---------- So it looks like the target for translation is mainly going to be the people falling into these categories: 7,753 people couldn't speak English well. And 1,479 people couldn't speak English. That's an audience of 9232 people (aged over 3, of course translation/interpretation might be needed for under 3s). If the council don't translate into Greek, maybe that means the Greek speakers all speak English well. ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 18:15 ---------- Rounding the budget up to £700,000, and assuming that the target of translation is those 9232 people (which it might not be) that means expenditure of (rounding up) £76 per each of those people over 3 years, or slightly over £25 a year. not nasty just truthful Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Jonny5 10 #113 Posted February 22, 2015 No as a matter of fact I haven't, have you? But I have enough basic French and Spanish to get by to ask for directions. I don't understand why people visiting a foreign country think that there is no need to bother to learn a smattering of the language but think that anyone visiting here should be able to speak English It is a case of laziness as pointed out in posts above ,and double standards. Caught in your own argument Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Charlie48 10 #114 Posted February 22, 2015 Spot on . we shouldnt be spending large sums of money translating for people who cannot be bothered to learn basic English when entering the country. They are not exactly coming here in sunglasses and shorts for a two week holiday. Many of the people SCC are assisting will be refugees who have fled persecution and violence. Do you ever watch the news? When do you expect them to learn English? Between the water-boarding sessions? I used to work with Kurdish refugees in London who had fled Iraq. Several of them had disabilities and visible injuries from torture. Ironically most of them were incredibly keen to learn English and find work and were very grateful for the safe haven this country offered them. What do you and your jack-boots think of that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
GLASGOWOODS 10 #115 Posted February 22, 2015 I just think that's nasty. What about my point that basic English might not be sufficient for some things? In other words, people learning English still might need support. You're assuming "laziness", which sounds like prejudice to me. According to the 2011 Census, there were 490,407 people (over 3) out of a total of 532,164 people living in Sheffield whose main language was English. There were 15,681 people whose main language wasn't English, but who spoke English very well. A further 16,844 people didn't have English as their main language, but spoke English well. 7,753 people couldn't speak English well. And 1,479 people couldn't speak English. The census also tells us what people's main languages were. English: 490, 407 Welsh: 67 Irish Gaelic: 2 Scottish Gaelic: 0 Manx Gaelic: 0 Unspecified Gaelic: 4 Cornish: 0 Scots: 11 Gypsy/Traveller languages: 1 French: 922 Portuguese: 499 Spanish: 808 Italian: 358 German: 478 Polish: 2611 Slovak: 1244 Czech: 318 Romanian: 284 Lithuanian: 309 Latvian: 184 Hungarian: 291 Bulgarian: 166 Greek: 497 Dutch: 175 Swedish: 95 Danish: 45 Finnish: 41 Estonian: 41 Slovenian: 20 Maltese: 17 Other EU European: 29 Albanian: 194 Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian: 57 Ukranian: 46 Other Eastern European, non-EU: 3 Other northern European, non-EU: 49 Romani: 0 Yiddish: 0 Russian: 511 Turkish: 566 Arabic: 5043 Hebrew: 9 Kurdish: 960 Persian/Farsi: 1017 Pashto: 807 Other West/Central Asian: 97 Urdu: 4222 Hindi: 404 Panjabi: 2743 Pakistani Pahari (With Mirpuri and Potwari): 287 Bengali (With Sylheti and Chatgaya): 1515 Gujarati: 222 Marathi: 87 Telugu: 334 Tamil: 308 Malayalam: 303 Sinhala: 162 Nepalese: 39 Other South Asian Languages: 309 Mandarin Chinese 609 Cantonese Chinese 503 All Other Chinese 4439 Japanese 171 Korean 175 Vietnamese 78 Thai 195 Malay 492 Tagalog/Filipino 277 East Asian Language (All Other) 307 Oceanic/Australian languages: 2 North/South American languages: 1 Caribbean creole: 6 Amharic 201 Tigrinya 439 Somali 2074 Krio 9 Akan 61 Yoruba 91 Igbo 82 Swahili/Kiswahili 136 Luganda 16 Lingala 49 Shona 508 Afrikaans 20 Any Other Nigerian Language 55 West African Language (All Other) 122 African Language (All Other) 483 All Other Languages 132 Sign language: 240 ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 17:59 ---------- So to pick out from the list I posted above: Albanian: 194 Amharic: 201 Arabic: 5043 Bengali: 1515 Bulgarian: 166 Burmese: not listed separately Cantonese: 503 Chinese: 609 (not sure if different from Mandarin below) Czech: 318 Dari (Afghan Persian)/Farsi: (counted together in stats): 1017 English: almost everyone French: 922 Hungarian: 291 Italian: 358 Karen (not listed separately) Kinyarwanda: (Rwanda) (not listed separately) Korean: 175 Kurdish: 960 Kurdish Sorani (not listed separately - included above?) Lingala: 49 Lithuanian: 309 Mandarin: 609 (different to Chinese above?) Nepali: 39 Oromo (Kenya, not listed separately) Pashto: 807 Polish: 2611 Portuguese: 499 Punjabi: 2743 Pustu (not listed separately) Roma: (not listed separately) Romani Gypsey: 1? Romanian: 284 Russian: 511 Slovak: 1244 Slovak Roma: (not listed separately) Somali: 2074 Spanish: 808 Swahili: 136 Thai: 195 Tigrinya: 439 Turkish: 566 Urdu: 4222 Vietnamese: 78 ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 18:07 ---------- Top 20 languages, English (English or Welsh if in Wales) 490407 Arabic 5043 All Other Chinese 4439 Urdu 4222 Panjabi 2743 Polish 2611 Somali 2074 Bengali (With Sylheti and Chatgaya) 1515 Slovak 1244 Persian/Farsi 1017 Kurdish 960 French 922 Spanish 808 Pashto 807 Mandarin Chinese 609 Turkish 566 Russian 511 Shona 508 Cantonese Chinese 503 Portuguese 499 If you don't count English, Greek sneaks in at the bottom with 497 speakers. Apparently the council don't translate into Greek. ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 18:12 ---------- So it looks like the target for translation is mainly going to be the people falling into these categories: 7,753 people couldn't speak English well. And 1,479 people couldn't speak English. That's an audience of 9232 people (aged over 3, of course translation/interpretation might be needed for under 3s). If the council don't translate into Greek, maybe that means the Greek speakers all speak English well. ---------- Post added 22-02-2015 at 18:15 ---------- Rounding the budget up to £700,000, and assuming that the target of translation is those 9232 people (which it might not be) that means expenditure of (rounding up) £76 per each of those people over 3 years, or slightly over £25 a year. 11 Scot speakers. What's that then? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Charlie48 10 #116 Posted February 22, 2015 we arnt talking about people visiting for holidays, the money is being wasted on people who come to live here and are too lazy to learn the language of the country they are living in. Like you are too lazy to think beyond your initial reactionary thought. What expertise do you have to make your statement. It's all guesses. For example, I might think the rumours about people from Penistone and sheep are true. But I wouldn't state it without doing a bit of field observation first. Don't we give droves of old codgers in the House of Lords £300 a day to snooze away of the plush leather. Now that is a shocking waste of money compared to helping someone understand a service or a legal notification. Bahhh... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Blackbeard 10 #117 Posted February 22, 2015 11 Scot speakers. What's that then? You never come across Scottish Gaelic? When I worked on South Usit I spent some time living with a family, the children could only speak Gaelic, their parents had left the island and worked on the mainland, England and overseas only returning to take over the croft when their own Gaelic speaking parents became to old to run it alone. Over breakfast each morning I would attempt to learn the language, 45 years later I can't remember very much apart from Madainn mhath (good morning). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
spilldig 188 #118 Posted February 22, 2015 Sorry but even in the context of the so called "blackhole" in the council's budget even cancelling these services entirely would achieve nothing but it would mean that people whose first language is not English would not understand the services provided and potentially tie up frontline staff with these misunderstandings. You may find that these services are fully costed, to assist already stretched frontline staff. They should make a start by cancelling those services and then continue cutting back on other waste. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
icecool 10 #119 Posted February 22, 2015 I moved to Spain for work over twenty years ago and had a mountain of paperwork to complete, all in spanish. As they were not translated into english I had to pay a translator to do this for me. I had to learn the language otherwise life would have been difficult. Now there are many different nationalities in Spain and the town halls still do not offer their paperwork in any other language but spanish. Why should they? The officials say,"you are in Spain, you should speak spanish". I agree with them, but that is my opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
ricgem2002 11 #120 Posted February 22, 2015 I moved to Spain for work over twenty years ago and had a mountain of paperwork to complete, all in spanish. As they were not translated into english I had to pay a translator to do this for me. I had to learn the language otherwise life would have been difficult. Now there are many different nationalities in Spain and the town halls still do not offer their paperwork in any other language but spanish. Why should they? The officials say,"you are in Spain, you should speak spanish". I agree with them, but that is my opinion. I bet your glad you moved there and don't have to put up with all the pc rubbish us brits have to contend with now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...