Paris shooting. 17 dead

[tinfoilhat 11]

Somehow, that has to happen. That's why I highlighted Netanyahu and Abbas standing together in Paris today. Somehow or other, a major political consensus needs building that dwarfs the extremists. They are a minority and need isolating.

 

I can't imagine that is going to happen easily, but it is the only way out of this.

 

---------- Post added 11-01-2015 at 19:35 ----------

 

 

Governments talk to terrorists whenever it suits them. It is time that we all made it suit them.

 

What do you think IS want that we have to give?

[gimp27 10]

What do you think IS want that we have to give?

 

For us all to say that Islam is great, and we think that their values are wonderful.

[Marx 10]

Anyone know anything about the rally in Town today, apparently there was an 'intervention' by the EDL.

 

Three excuses for men on the City Hall steps holding a small banner with a UK flag as the background. Others then tried to hide them behind the 'Unite' banner and it became a bit of a tussle and the police intervened. They were the usual foul-mouthed idiots doing the 'V' salute when people were speaking.

[Guest sibon]

What do you think IS want that we have to give?

 

I'm not suggesting that we give IS anything. How did you infer that from my post?

 

Did you read the first paragraph of the post that you responded to?

[Bounce 10]

I'm sorry but this bloke is just an ignorant plonker.

 

It seems that you are showing yourself up as such but typing in the way that you are.

 

this is the blame-the-west-for everything narrative beloved of the Islamists just like it was beloved of the Marxists before them, and still is beloved of the leftist apologists for Islamist terrorists and these kind of outrages today.

 

of course, it is all nonsense. Like all this, is nonsense :

 

Not blame the west for everything but apportion blame where blame is due. This argument is used by right minded Muslims and Non Muslims alike in response to those who blame Islam and Muslims for everything. It's a fact that the conflicts in the Middle East and Muslim parts of Asia were caused by Western governments and the stooge dictators which they have propped up.

 

The facts don't sit well with people like you who want to blame Islam for everything and therefore you start winging "blame the west for everything, blame the west for everything".

 

total garbage. The rise of the Alawites in Syria from being the perennial underclass of Syria to top dogs in the later 20th century and especially in the 1960s is a fascinating subject involving a lot of scholarly debate. Whole books have been written about it. But one thing is for sure and on which everyone is agreed. The former French colonisers, had nothing at all to do with it. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit in with Bounce's Islamist/Marxist blame-the-west-for-everything model.

 

No my friend it is you who is typing total garbage. For a start who is everyone? Would everyone according to you be Western European writers? What about Arab writers and their perspective? Whole books can be written by anyone and if you have not posted any book titles or authors here then I suggest you don't present the writing of books as evidence. The former French colonisers had a lot to do with it. So in your world view anyone who recognises Western Imperialism's role in shaping the present day Middle East is either Islamist or Communist You do realise you have now labelled a number of both eastern and western academics, historians as Islamists and Communists.

 

Dr. Fildis is assistant professor in the Department of Political Sciences at Halic University in Istanbul.

 

Arab nationalism, developed mainly by the Sunni Muslim community, was perceived as a threat by the French as well as by the Christians and the heterodox Muslim communities (Druzes, Ismailis and Alawites).2 Therefore, the French mandate administration cultivated a friendly relationship with the Druze, Alawites and some smaller communities. The mandate administration thus granted autonomy to Syria's two regionally compact minority groups, the Druze and the Alawites, and to the multicommunal regions of Alexandretta and the Jazirah.3

 

In 1922, the Jabal al-Druze region, located in an area of Druze concentration south of Damascus, was proclaimed a separate unit under French protection, with its own governor and elected congress. The mountain district behind Latakia, with its large Alawite population, became a special administrative regime under heavy French protection and was proclaimed a separate state. Later, in 1922, all but the Jabal al-Druze were united in a Syrian Federation that was dissolved at the end of 1924 and replaced by a Syrian state comprising the states of Aleppo and Damascus and a separate Sanjak of Alexandretta. The Alawite state was, however, excluded from this new arrangement. Except for a brief period, from 1936 to 1939, Alawite and Druze states were administratively separate from Syria until 1942.

 

During much of the Mandate era, France's divide-and-rule strategy helped to define the extent of the nationalist movement and prevent it from infecting minority-inhabited areas. The French also cut the ties between the urban nationalist opposition and the peripheral regions. Due to this strategy, the Syrian nationalist movement encountered great difficulty in expanding its activities beyond Damascus, Aleppo, Hama and Homs.

 

Arab nationalists did regard France as a friendly nation — as defined by the mandate, to help and guide them towards independence and statehood4 — but as a colonial, Christian, Western and anti-Muslim power that denied their national aspirations and threatened their religion, culture and language.5 The French administration consciously neglected to train an efficient and dedicated administrative elite and quietly aggravated relations between the Sunni Arab majority and minorities. The numerous divisions and re-divisions of Syria during the mandate6 obstructed the development of such an elite. When the last French troops withdrew in April 1946, one of the greatest obstacles to political integration after independence was regionalism.

 

The French policy of divide and rule eroded the ties among Syria's religious and ethnic groups, forging factions within each group and against the others. The French balanced ethnic representation by placing separate ethnicities at the head of different institutional branches of government, allowing one ethnic or religious group to be strongly represented in an institution. As a consequence, the Sunni Arabs were dominant in politics, the officer corps, the gendarmerie and the police, but underrepresented in the military's rank and file. By contrast, the Circassians were overrepresented in the army, but poorly represented in parliament and the police. The Alawites were overrepresented among the soldiers, but poorly represented in politics, the officer corps, the gendarmerie and the police.7

 

The pattern set during the French mandate and carried over into the independence era was the Syrian nationalist leadership's rejection of Arab unity as its principal political goal. Nationalists faced an awkward contradiction between pan-Arab unity and local self-interest.8 Arab nationalism's highest ideal — the creation of a single independent political unit including all who shared the Arabic language and cultural heritage — was pitted against a tendency to focus on local ambitions and concerns.

 

http://www.mepc.org/journal/middle-east-policy-archives/roots-alawite-sunni-rivalry-syria

 

more garbage. Only a total ignoramus, could write that. Israel created itself. If Bounce knew anything at all about the history, which he doesn't, then he would know that the only British military personnel that were involved in the 1948 war of independence fought on the Arab side as commanding officers of the Royal Jordanian Legion, who were probably the best performing, and the most effective enemies of the Israelis in the 1948 war, of all the Arab units.

 

Again you are the one typing garbage and your insults do not phase me one bit. If you think you can suppress the truth with insults then think again.

 

November 2nd 1907 - The British government issued the Balfour Declaration (Arthur Balfour) promising the establishment of a national home for the Jews in Palestine.

 

James Arthur Balfour British Foreign Secretary wrote in reply to Lord Rothschild head of the Zionist Federation in Great Britain on November 2nd 1917.

 

"His majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national homeland for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object".

 

1920 San Reno conference granted Britain a mandate over Palestine.

 

1947 Britain decided to leave Palestine and called for the UN to make recommendations.

 

1947 The UN adopted a plan calling for the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states with Jerusalem as international zone under UN jurisdiction.

 

David Ben Gurion, Israels first prime minister, July 16 1948 "We must do everything to ensure they (the Palestinian refugees) never do return"

 

David Ben Gurion 1948 "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal, we have taken their country. It is true, God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs."

 

Ariel Sharon former Israeli PM 1956 "I don.t know something called international principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child born in this area"

 

April 1976 "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to ride the Galilee of its Arab population" Israel Koenig, The Koenig Memorandum

 

Manachem Begin Israeli prime minister (1977 - 1983) "The Palestinians are beasts walking on two legs"

 

Ariel Sharon former Israeli Prime Minister 17th December 1982 "What you don't understand is the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it".

 

Shlomo Lahat mayor of Tel Aviv October 1983 "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves"

 

Moshe Dayan Israeli general in his diaries "Our policy was always to provoke the Arabs and get an appropriate response so we could attack and smash them".

 

 

the garbage continues. The Americans, like the French and the Alawites in Syria, had nothing at all to do with Saddam's rise to power and did not have a single human being in Iraq at the time their having ceased diplomatic relations with Iraq in 1967. This continued until 1983, when frightened that Saddam might lose the iran-Iraq war he started, the USA restored diplomatic relations again after 16 years and hurriedly threw their weight behind Iraq, not for Iraq to win, but so Iran would not. In the words of Henry Kissinger, the attitude of the USA together with the other western countries, was not to support Iraq but to ' hope they both lose'.

 

Again you are the one talking garbage by calling the facts garbage. Facts do not become garbage on your say so.

 

Another very good example of a CIA-organized regime change was a coup in 1963 that employed political assassination, mass imprisonment, torture and murder. This was the military coup that first brought Saddam Hussein's beloved Ba'ath Party to power in Iraq. At the time, Richard Helms was Director for Plans at the CIA. That is the top CIA position responsible for covert actions, like organizing coups. Helms served in that capacity until 1966, when he was made Director.

 

In the quotations collected below, the name of the leader who was assassinated is spelled variously as Qasim, Qassim and Kassem. But, however you spell his name, when he took power in a popularly-backed coup in 1958, he certainly got recognized in Washington. He carried out such anti-American and anti-corporatist policies as starting the process of nationalizing foreign oil companies in Iraq, withdrawing Iraq from the US-initiated right-wing Baghdad Pact (which included another military-run, US-puppet state, i.e., Pakistan) and decriminalizing the Iraqi Communist Party. Despite these actions, and more likely because of them, he was Iraq's most popular leader. He had to go!

 

In 1959, there was a failed assassination attempt on Qasim. The failed assassin was none other than a young Saddam Hussein. In 1963, a CIA-organized coup did successfully assassinate Qasim and Saddam's Ba'ath Party came to power for the first time. Saddam returned from exile in Egypt and took up the key post as head of Iraq's secret service. The CIA then provided the new pliant, Iraqi regime with the names of thousands of communists, and other leftist activists and organizers. Thousands of these supporters of Qasim and his policies were soon dead in a rampage of mass murder carried out by the CIA's close friends in Iraq.

 

Iraq is once again a target of US regime change. Despite that, precious little is being said by the corporate media about how the CIA aided and abetted political assassination, regime change and mass murder, all in the name of putting Saddam's Ba'ath power into power for the first time in Iraq.

 

Source: Andrew and Patrick Cockburn,

excerpt from Out of the Ashes, The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein, 2000.

Cited by Tim Buckley <http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2000/msg01267.html>

 

 

just when you thought that the sheer amount of garbage in one post was approaching record levels, Bounce comes out with even more. The CIA backed the Mujaheddin against the Soviets, not the Taliban, who did not even exist until 1994. Bounce shows himself here to be guilty of the very same sin he accuses others of - namely that any Muslim with a beard and a Kalashnikov or a rocket lanucher is Taliban or a terrorist instead of the undoubted heroes many of the Mujahuddin were. In reality the Mujaheddin of the 1980s and the Taliban of the 1990s, were totally different things.

 

Was Osama Bin Laden part of this Mujahideen backed by the CIA or was he not? I want you to answer this one question before you start babbling on as if the Mujahideen and the Taliban were completely separate entities.

[Penistone999 10]

Three excuses for men on the City Hall steps holding a small banner with a UK flag as the background. Others then tried to hide them behind the 'Unite' banner and it became a bit of a tussle and the police intervened. They were the usual foul-mouthed idiots doing the 'V' salute when people were speaking.

 

No surprise there then , the trouble causers from the UAF turning up looking for a fight .

[Guest]

 

I was sent this and did find the footage on the so called shooting of the policeman (who was reported to be have been 'finished off with a shot to the head') intriguing.

[tzijlstra 11]

I think it is time we stopped looking at the lunatics that committed these murders in paris as either terrorists or jehadists. I think it time we started looking at this far more objectively.

 

The young men that killed these people were perhaps using thier interpretation of their religion and their amazing powers to know how their god (ficticious or otherwise) felt about a few drawings and a little satire, as an excuse to kill people.

 

Young men (some) the world over haved always had a delusional longing to die in a blaze of glory for something they consider to be honourable so that they can be immortalised in the memories of those they leave behind.

 

Most of thr world has woken up and as they say smelled the coffee on this one. Far less people in the west , young men in particular, feel as driven by this insane compulsion these days, having been involved in two World Wars. Those that gave their lives did so selflessly and honourably without doubt.... few these days would acknowledge there being any glory attached to war.

 

Without making a big thing of it I am prepared to accept the idea that some ideologies are much younger than christianity or shinto and some members of the world community did not suffer the same numbers of casualties as many of the major participants of the last two world wars. Pehaps that is why they may have not matured as quickly, consequently they still see the potential for everlasting glory (or if you prefer martyrdom) in commiting acts in which they die whilst butchering others.

 

By all means let out governments employ all the means they have at their collective disposal to find and exterminate these nutters and the people behinr them. When we are naming these individuals or their organisations which by belong to we give them credit we justify what they have done by allowing them their fame. We let our media report their actions so as to cause more shock and awe.

 

Stop naming them in the media. Far better a news report like this; some muslim nutters killed some defenceless people in france today the authorities have been able to locate and put them all down. Then relate the real stories that matter about the other people involved, those that died, the very young the elderly, the courage shown by those that lived an their accounts of what happened.

 

Ignore the the kill for thrills glory seekers as much as possible gave them as little recognition as at all possible and let their meaningless deaths gain them as much fame as their pointnless lives did prior to that day...deny them their 15 minutes of fame.

 

Above all stop letting them bring their own people or religions into disrepute.

.

.

.

 

It's not very often that this has occurred, but I mostly agree with you Tommo.

[milquetoast1 10]

 

I was sent this and did find the footage on the so called shooting of the policeman (who was reported to be have been 'finished off with a shot to the head') intriguing.

 

They no doubt knew who to send it too.

[anfisa 10]

 

I was sent this and did find the footage on the so called shooting of the policeman (who was reported to be have been 'finished off with a shot to the head') intriguing.

 

I have to agree that he does not appear to have been shot in the head as we have been lead to believe, and the video matches the photos that have been published in the press.

 

It is also a little odd that the dead officer appears to have been unarmed.

Edited January 11, 2015 by anfisa

[Manchild 10]

 

I was sent this and did find the footage on the so called shooting of the policeman (who was reported to be have been 'finished off with a shot to the head') intriguing.

 

I dont know what to make of it. The bullet missed! I mean it actualy missed

[Bounce 10]

Bounce seemed to be leaning that way which is a bit wrong.They were, to best of my knowledge, brought up in France - they haven't just got off a boat from Libya or Syria or some other war zone. They were, after a bit of digging, quite keen on getting others to fight the good fight in Iraq in gulf war 2. Reading up on it, these were bad people. What they were doing on the streets with their track record is a mystery to me and I suspect those with similar records will be under very very close scrutiny.

 

Bounce didn't seem to be leaning that way. Bounce was responding to sweeping statements about Islam and Muslims.

 

You can't use westen imperialism as a reason to shoot up a magazine. It doesn't matter what bush did, the cia did or what drone attacks what Taliban in a Pakistani village. It's completely irelivent. If it was relevant more people would do it or try, or try and protest against governments - particularly the french, they love a good protest. You can't use the wronging of another Muslim thousands of miles away as a reason to violently attack the country of their birth (again to the best of my knowledge!). And then, blatantly ignore the countless suicide attacks on other muslims - where's the outrage there? Oh yeah, the likes of bounce will Palm that off on the west too.

 

It's completely relevant because far more Muslim civilians are being killed by western governments and the stooge dictators they put into power. This is the main reason why anti western sentiment has grown in the Muslim world and extremist groups have been able to gain a foot hold. Just as in the west the constant negative portrayal of Muslims and incidents of murders by extremist Muslims have caused anti Muslim sentiment and far right extremist groups have been able to grow in popularity.

 

EDIT : as for the link, no there is no justification. It could have been 10 magazines shot up there is no reason to single out a pregnant woman for a kicking. Ever.

 

This attack took place in June 2013 and not many people knew about it just like the pregnant Muslim female doctor stabbed to death 18 times in a German courtroom while authorities looked on and then shot her husband who was trying to save her. The murder of one Muslim by far right extremists hardly even makes the news in Europe. On the other hand if its the murder of Lee Rigby by Muslim extremists the story is run for weeks as terrorism.