Why do conveyancing solicitors want you to..

[LUCAN 10]

 

Have you actually ever seen a solicitor, never mind retained one?

 

Many times, always the same. We operate fixed fee conveyancing at £795.95 blah blah blah, please send over £250 on account. End bill. £1400+. But hey, what you gonna do! I just past the cost on where I can.

[Cyclone 10]

This is conveyancing. Fixed fee indeed! What a lark.

 

Two seconds on google

 

http://www.bestvalueconveyancing.co.uk/

 

Fixed fee with no extras

No sale - no fee

 

and

 

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ianmcowie/100020641/homebuyers-can-cut-costs-with-new-fixed-price-conveyancing-challenge-to-lawyers/

 

While the supermarket has problems closer to home and has yet to offer any cut-price legal services, Saga Group says it will handle the paperwork necessary for homebuying and selling for a fixed fee of £750 including VAT; regardless of the price of the property.

[LUCAN 10]

Two seconds on google

 

I'll believe it when I actually experience it and not before. I certainly won't be holding my breath.

[L00b 441]

Many times, always the same. We operate fixed fee conveyancing at £795.95 blah blah blah, please send over £250 on account. End bill. £1400+.

So you got overcharged by close to 100% "many times" and still "always used the same" firm?

But hey, what you gonna do!

Understand that services provided under a fixed fee agreement are for the services agreed and nothing but, nothing more?

 

And that changing the instructions/requirements/nature of the services part-way incurs extra time and therefore costs?

[aliceBB 10]

So you got overcharged by close to 100% "many times" and still "always used the same" firm?

Understand that services provided under a fixed fee agreement are for the services agreed and nothing but, nothing more?

 

And that changing the instructions/requirements/nature of the services part-way incurs extra time and therefore costs?

 

I agree, but have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a 'straightforward' house sale or purchase and that the conveyancers involved will always find something to make it less straightforward for which they can justify charging an additional fee which you will not have anticipated. For example, one of the parties concerned (see #1) has just had to pay for an indemnity policy for something, plus sign two declarations relating to her property (neither of which has ever been an issue before), plus pay Bradford Met £22 to send her 'official' details of where local landlfill sites are (at the other solicitor's insistence) when this information was freely and quickly available online. So far the extra have cost her £270 and a lot of hanging about when she would have liked to be moving house.

 

I'd say that most fixed fee conveyancing starts at about £800, then ends up being a few hundred extra depending on how many 'extra' things each side can find to weave into to the tapestry.

[L00b 441]

I agree, but have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a 'straightforward' house sale or purchase and that the conveyancers involved will always find something to make it less straightforward for which they can justify charging an additional fee which you will not have anticipated.

I can't agree or disagree, as I am unfamiliar with conveyancing practice, and perhaps Jeffrey will expand.

 

What I do know, is that when I offer a client the choice of going fixed fee (e.g. for registering a trademark), there is always a caveat at the same time that if instructions change part-way, or a prosecution event requires additional work, that is charged on top.

 

We can offer the fixed fee because the procedure is essentially automated when all happens as it should, and the fixed fee is significantly cheaper than charging on the clock. If the procedure is as straightforward as anticipated, and the registration occurs without an adverse examination report nor any opposition, the client does not pay a penny more than the fixed fee.

 

It's when things go off the rails that a lot of work is required, and that gets charged out on the clock, because e.g. an opposition can set a client back anywhere between a few hundreds to 5 figures (depending on how the other side behaves and how long/far/complex the procedure goes), and nobody (-qualified) is going to do that work (I) for free (i.e. at no charge beyond the fixe fee) or (II) on a CFA (because rules of professional conduct forbid it).

 

In context, that's not "finding something for the sake of charging extra", it's just the continuing absence of reliable crystal balls (because only <insert deity> could provide any guarantees about an adverse examination report or an opposition at the time of estimating the job, weeks and months before it can procedurally occur)

Edited October 8, 2014 by L00b

[Jeffrey Shaw 90]

Yes. For work which can be quantified in advance, a fixed fee is almost invariable. For open-ended work, there's usually a time rate plus EITHER an estimate of the likely total or an ESTIMATE of the time that the matter will take. Only if the scope of the work changes, whether at the client's behest or due to unexpected problems, should the cost change.

 

So ('Lucan'), your comment

We operate fixed fee conveyancing at £795.95 blah blah blah, please send over £250 on account. End bill. £1400+.

means that the fee:

a. was fixed at £795 inclusive (and the Bill should have been at that level; you shouldn't have paid more); or

b. was £795 + VAT + disbursements (and the Bill was correct).

 

The "£250 on account" is included in the total. The solicitor does not lay out that amount, interest-free to you, on disbursements incurred. It has no impact on the total in any event.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Jeffrey Shaw

[aliceBB 10]

I suppose it depends what can be classed as 'unexpected problems' in the world of conveyancing.

 

The other party's solicitor needed to be telephoned two or three times more than usual?

 

Or what?

 

I would be interested to know what qualifies as an unexpected problem during the process of doing the conveyancing for a house sale.

[Mel's Mum 10]

1....prove you have never chopped a tree down which is subject to a Tree Preservation Order. How do you prove you haven't done something?

 

2....send them Gas and Electrical safety certificates for a property which was never required to have them?

 

3....produce a Fensta guarantee for replacement glass panes (installed 1990) which don't require one?

 

4....ask, six months (!) into the sale process, to prove that your husband is dead and that you are the sole owner of the property?

 

5...prove that the nearest landfill site (in this case 17 miles away) has never had any impact on the property?

 

6...to prove you are on mains sewerage (in a town in W Yorks) and that you do not have a septic tank?

 

It all smacks of job creation to me...

 

These all sound like queries your friend's buyer's solicitors would have raised. When you are selling, your solicitor doesn't need any information other than the property information form, fixtures and fittings form and any guarantees unless the buyer raises it. Once they raise enquiries your solicitor is obliged to pass the questions on to you for replies. As to why they waited 6 months into the process to ask, this could be for many reasons - maybe they have a slow solicitor, maybe they were waiting for mortgage confirmation before they started to raise enquiries, or maybe they were waiting for their own property to sell. I would have thought your friend's solicitor should have been chasing them to raise enquiries before 6 months had elapsed but I'm not party to what was happening in that 6 months.

 

 

I agree, but have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a 'straightforward' house sale or purchase and that the conveyancers involved will always find something to make it less straightforward for which they can justify charging an additional fee which you will not have anticipated. For example, one of the parties concerned (see #1) has just had to pay for an indemnity policy for something, plus sign two declarations relating to her property (neither of which has ever been an issue before), plus pay Bradford Met £22 to send her 'official' details of where local landlfill sites are (at the other solicitor's insistence) when this information was freely and quickly available online. So far the extra have cost her £270 and a lot of hanging about when she would have liked to be moving house.

 

 

The "fixed fee" that conveyancing solicitors charge is purely for the legal work. The two costs you have mentioned above are disbursements (third party costs) which haven't been charged by the solicitor but by the third party concerned. For instance the indemnity policy is at the price charged by the insurance company who provides the policy. The solicitor will ask for this cost as it has to be paid to the insurance company. Indemnity policies are a requirement now of lenders if there is a mortgage involved and any information is missing. You can refuse to pay the policy but your buyers may not then be able to get their mortgage and your sale could collapse.

[aliceBB 10]

Thank you for clarifying.

 

The indemnity policies were not however a condition of any mortgage, since it was a cash sale.

 

The purchaser's solicitor seemed to object to absolutely every answer supplied to him, when it (the sale process) should (according to an independent conveyancer of my acquaintance) have taken no more than six weeks from start to finish.

 

For example, the Property Information Form stated that repairs had been made to conservatory windows. He then demanded a FENSA certificate. He was told that since the work done involved only repairs and not replacement windows, a FENSA certificate was neither required nor issued. He had to be told this three times before he finally shut up about it. Not helpful!

[Jeffrey Shaw 90]

I would be interested to know what qualifies as an unexpected problem during the process of doing the conveyancing for a house sale.

Here's a few from my recent cases.

1. Existing lease too short and extension needed.

2. Freehold reversioner insisting on a consent fee although nothing in the lease allows it.

3. Lack of Building Act 1984 consent.

4. Boundaries on the ground don't match those in the deeds/HMLR title plan.

5. Neighbour unexpectedly asserts that a pedestrian easement has become a vehicular easement, without convincing evidence.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Jeffrey Shaw

[aliceBB 10]

5. ....yes - and? Or should the comma be a full stop?