Immigration Continues to Spiral Out of Control

[L00b 441]

The undeniable fact is we cannot control the number of EU migrants coming here.

Incorrect.

 

The "undeniable fact" is the UK cannot stop EU migrants from coming to the UK. There is a difference between that and "controlling the number coming here", as another "undeniable fact" is that this Gvt has enacted plenty of legislative changes to impede/prevent access to benefits by EU migrants (enough so that Brussels is suing the UK about it). That is 'control'. But it might not be the sort of uniformed-with-batons physical control you have in mind?

The only way we will ever be able to control the number of EU migrants coming here is if we leave the EU.

That is one way of controlling. Not "the only way". Need I remind you that Germany is very much aligned with the UK about bringing in EU changes (at Treaty level) to limit/quota intra-EU economic migration.

Once our own democratically elected government controls our immigration policy with the EU, you are free to vote for a party that wants relaxed borders with the EU if you wish, but why would you object to our own democratically elected government exercising domcratic control of our immigration policy with the EU? Don't you like democracy?

Just to forestall the rethoric a bit...in what way is the current UK Gvt not the UK's own, and in what way is the current UK Gvt not democratically elected?

Once we leave the EU, our concern is securing our own borders.

I think you'll find that if and when the UK should leave the EU, "securing borders" will be far down the prioritized list of concerns. Expect to see it trumped by how to stop capital flight, head office and industry/plants migrations, and the associated brain drain, jobs losses and tax haemorrhage. And the socio-economic consequences of course.

 

Mind you, I suppose you'd see that as a virtuous circle, as these consequences are sure to stop the economic immigration dead.

The EU can have as many Lampadusa islands as they like, but make no mistake, welcoming them (illegal immigrants) and allowing them to settle in Europe only brings more, and more will die as a result. Does it not concern you that opinions of your sort are responsible for killing people?

[yoda]the rethoric, strong in this one it is[/yoda]

 

The best thing the UK could do right now to exert more control over immigration (EU/non-EU, legal and illegal), and regardless of its current EU membership, is to adopt a mandatory ID card system. It's how illegals have long been dealt with in France (improvised ID control in street; no ID? to the cop shop, investigate ID; investigation outcome = illegal? deport, Airbus is that-a-way ->). But I can hear the howls from here already

Edited August 29, 2014 by L00b

[Penistone999 10]

Can you explain how leaving the EU will fix the one form of immigration that is demonstrated to be detrimental: illegal immigration?

 

Those pitching up here in the back of a curtain sider is a totally different iuuse to the mass , uncontrolled immigration from eastern Eurpoe, ie , Romania , slovakia and poland. We get out of this EU farce , take back cobtrol of our borders where europeans are concerned and we can stop the influx ,but while ever we are part of this lunacy we cant do nowt about the immigration from Europe. We must cut all ties with the nutters in Brussels ASAP and return to being masters of own destiny ,instead of being conned into being part of a united states of Europe , which no one wants .

[SevenRivers 10]

Incorrect.

 

The "undeniable fact" is the UK cannot stop EU migrants from coming to the UK. There is a difference between that and "controlling the number coming here", as another "undeniable fact" is that this Gvt has enacted plenty of legislative changes to impede/prevent access to benefits by EU migrants (enough so that Brussels is suing the UK about it). That is 'control'. But it might not be the sort of uniformed-with-batons physical control you have in mind?

 

If we can't stop them coming here, we can't control the numbers. Limiting benefits only makes us less desirable, dress it up how you like it doesn't bestow on us right to turn away EU migrants from the border, or place economic restrictions/conditions for entry.

 

That is one way of controlling. Not "the only way". Need I remind you that Germany is very much aligned with the UK about bringing in EU changes (at Treaty level) to limit/quota intra-EU economic migration.

 

You can't possibly be gullible enough to think Merkel and Cameron have any intention of limiting the free movement of people. Merkel was the main backer of federalist Jean Claude Junker which shows here intentions towards the UK, the only direction they want to take the EU is ever tighter integration.

 

Just to forestall the rethoric a bit...in what way is the current UK Gvt not the UK's own, and in what way is the current UK Gvt not democratically elected?

The democratically elected UK government does not have control of it's immigration policy with the EU, it is powerless to prevent people migrating from the EU because we have ceeded that power to the EU.

 

I think you'll find that if and when the UK should leave the EU, "securing borders" will be far down the prioritized list of concerns. Expect to see it trumped by how to stop capital flight, head office and industry/plants migrations, and the associated brain drain, jobs losses and tax haemorrhage. And the socio-economic consequences of course.

 

Mind you, I suppose you'd see that as a virtuous circle, as these consequences are sure to stop the economic immigration dead.

But it will be on the list which is what matters, not that I believe any of your prophesies of doom.

 

[yoda]the rethoric, strong in this one it is[/yoda]

 

The best thing the UK could do right now to exert more control over immigration (EU/non-EU, legal and illegal), and regardless of its current EU membership, is to adopt a mandatory ID card system. It's how illegals have long been dealt with in France (improvised ID control in street; no ID? to the cop shop, investigate ID; investigation outcome = illegal? deport, Airbus is that-a-way ->). But I can hear the howls from here already

 

Read the BBC article from the last few days about net migration figures. The main increase isn't from non-EU, it is from EU states. We can clamp down all we like on non-EU in an attempt to control immigration. In fact this is what Dave was relying on when he promised to cut immigration to the tens of thousands. It's meaningless as far as controlling the number of arrivals is concerned while ever we cannot control how many come from the EU.

[tzijlstra 11]

The undeniable fact is we cannot control the number of EU migrants coming here. The only way we will ever be able to control the number of EU migrants coming here is if we leave the EU. Once our own democratically elected government controls our immigration policy with the EU, you are free to vote for a party that wants relaxed borders with the EU if you wish, but why would you object to our own democratically elected government exercising domcratic control of our immigration policy with the EU? Don't you like democracy?

we can't control it, and we shouldn't want to control it. The undeniable fact is that part of the UKs reinvigorated economy is the influx of talented immigrants as well as increased availability of non-skilled workers to ensure prices can stay low. There are very, very few economists who will dispute that fact.

 

You keep referring to the undemocratic nature of the EU, which is laughable as the one government in the EU that is preventing FURTHER democratisation of the EU is your own, which, in case you hadn't noticed, with the first past the post system offers about as much democratic choice as twice that of a Chinese citizen.

 

I think we are the best people to decide how our own money is spent. Why do you think a foreign power are better placed at spending our money on our behalf?

another laughable statement that is indicative of how little you understand about the EU, you are an EU citizen, how is that a foreign power again?

 

Once we leave the EU, our concern is securing our own borders. The EU can have as many Lampadusa islands as they like, but make no mistake, welcoming them (illegal immigrants) and allowing them to settle in Europe only brings more, and more will die as a result. Does it not concern you that opinions of your sort are responsible for killing people?

And the final risible comment. How is putting these people in camps where they live of just enough not to perish before they are sent back, often penniless, a warm welcome? The only EU country I know that is welcoming to illegal immigrants is the UK. Free healthcare, housing and a ridiculous routemap to send illegal immigrants back is a warm welcome. Other EU states have been imploring the UK to toughen up for decades.

 

Only yesterday did I read a German article on illegal immigration which squarely puts the blame for Calais at the UK's feet. And rightfully so, there is a simple reason these immigrants want to come here, have you considered that?

[L00b 441]

If we can't stop them coming here, we can't control the numbers. Limiting benefits only makes us less desirable, dress it up how you like it doesn't bestow on us right to turn away EU migrants from the border, or place economic restrictions/conditions for entry.

These measure which I mentioned achieve just that. They are by and large tied into the "Habitual Residence Test", look it up. Not the first time I've asked you to do that, if memory serves.

You can't possibly be gullible enough to think Merkel and Cameron have any intention of limiting the free movement of people. Merkel was the main backer of federalist Jean Claude Junker which shows here intentions towards the UK, the only direction they want to take the EU is ever tighter integration.

(i) Merkel was not the 'main backer' of Juncker, as a matter of fact she had little to no say in the matter.

 

(ii) You are assuming that Juncker is still as much of a federalist as the UK mass media have demonized...sorry, portrayed him earlier this year. Many political commentators think different.

The democratically elected UK government does not have control of it's immigration policy with the EU, it is powerless to prevent people migrating from the EU because we have ceeded that power to the EU.

So why belabouring the "UK's own democratically elected" character of the UK's government in your posts?

 

"The UK government" is clearly enough for your argument, was that just a bit of cheap populism à la UKIP, perchance?

But it will be on the list which is what matters, not that I believe any of your prophesies of doom.

There's nothing "prophetic" about it, it's simple logic

Read the BBC article from the last few days about net migration figures. The main increase isn't from non-EU, it is from EU states. We can clamp down all we like on non-EU in an attempt to control immigration. In fact this is what Dave was relying on when he promised to cut immigration to the tens of thousands. It's meaningless as far as controlling the number of arrivals is concerned while ever we cannot control how many come from the EU.

I've given you a first real-life time-tested example, through which the UK does not need to imperil its national economy through an exit. Your mutism is noted.

 

So, here's a second, albeit somewhat more impractical and difficult to live with: plunge the UK into a second, properly abysmal recession, to stop it from being so attractive to foreigners after bettering their lot

 

Anyway, I see you frothing about the net migration numbers...but I have yet to see you prove that such numbers are a drain on the UK's economy. Care to make out your case with something other than rethorical opinion?

[Tommo68 10]

.................Once again, an enormous proportion of the numbers in the OP are attributable to foreign students. .......

 

Students are not immigrants..theoretically at least... I'm not sure what happens when their courses are finished to the increasing numbers of, particularly in sheffield chinese, students I have seen pushing prams.

These children's offspring are so young it's apparent they were born here.

 

 

....... Simple fact is that the majority of illegal immigrants deeply regret making the move and were the victim of a massive scam.

 

No-one asked them to come here and maybe its time we started educating them about all the potential pitfalls before they decide to try to sneak in.

 

Leaving the EU is going to make it more difficult to tackle that scam.

 

No need to leave the EU completely just shut our borders to legal immigrants, tighten up the borders for the illegals and offer such incentives that the smugglers themselves will inform on the illegals.

 

The detainment camps we keep the illegals in do seem like a waste of time and money but the very fact they will be detained there before deportation does provide some disincentive though I think the camps should be run more like prisons. They are criminals when all said and done. The smugglers should also be dealt with far more severely, perhaps a few years imprisonment for every illegal they are assisting, I don't know if they are but their vehicles should be confiscated and sold to help a little with costs.

 

Perhaps we could set up our own sting... getting the illegals to payout to be smuggled here to covert customs officers who just allow them to be caught in France for example so they have to deal with them and not us, or just take them and deport them straight away. This will build up distrust of the smugglers and the money the illegals pay could be helped to finance the operation and the detainment camps.

 

And we should stop taking every EU directive or law as one of own until we have considered its pros and cons for us.

.

.

[SevenRivers 10]

we can't control it, and we shouldn't want to control it. The undeniable fact is that part of the UKs reinvigorated economy is the influx of talented immigrants as well as increased availability of non-skilled workers to ensure prices can stay low. There are very, very few economists who will dispute that fact.

 

I've never disputed there are benefits to immigration. That doesn't mean those benefits can't be achieved with a smaller number of migrants if we are choosier about who comes here.

 

You keep referring to the undemocratic nature of the EU, which is laughable as the one government in the EU that is preventing FURTHER democratisation of the EU is your own, which, in case you hadn't noticed, with the first past the post system offers about as much democratic choice as twice that of a Chinese citizen.

 

We had a democratic vote to keep FPTP. Go home if you don't like it.

 

another laughable statement that is indicative of how little you understand about the EU, you are an EU citizen, how is that a foreign power again?

I'm a European citizen, I'd rather not be an EU citizen. I regard the EU as a foreign power exerting control over our laws and everyday lives. You wouldn't view it as a foreign power if you want to be part of it, fair enough, that's your opinion.

 

And the final risible comment. How is putting these people in camps where they live of just enough not to perish before they are sent back, often penniless, a warm welcome? The only EU country I know that is welcoming to illegal immigrants is the UK. Free healthcare, housing and a ridiculous routemap to send illegal immigrants back is a warm welcome. Other EU states have been imploring the UK to toughen up for decades.

 

So after arriving at Lampedusa, illegal immigrants get sent home, and don't in fact get shipped to Sicily and mainland Italy where they are processed at holding facilities before being given six month Visas, is that what you are claiming?

 

I agree with you about the UK benefits though.

 

Only yesterday did I read a German article on illegal immigration which squarely puts the blame for Calais at the UK's feet. And rightfully so, there is a simple reason these immigrants want to come here, have you considered that?

[tzijlstra 11]

Students are not immigrants..theoretically at least... I'm not sure what happens when their courses are finished to the increasing numbers of, particularly in sheffield chinese, students I have seen pushing prams.

These children's offspring are so young it's apparent they were born here.

 

 

 

 

No-one asked them to come here and maybe its time we started educating them about all the potential pitfalls before they decide to try to sneak in.

 

 

 

No need to leave the EU completely just shut our borders to legal immigrants, tighten up the borders for the illegals and offer such incentives that the smugglers themselves will inform on the illegals.

 

The detainment camps we keep the illegals in do seem like a waste of time and money but the very fact they will be detained there before deportation does provide some disincentive though I think the camps should be run more like prisons. They are criminals when all said and done. The smugglers should also be dealt with far more severely, perhaps a few years imprisonment for every illegal they are assisting, I don't know if they are but their vehicles should be confiscated and sold to help a little with costs.

 

Perhaps we could set up our own sting... getting the illegals to payout to be smuggled here to covert customs officers who just allow them to be caught in France for example so they have to deal with them and not us, or just take them and deport them straight away. This will build up distrust of the smugglers and the money the illegals pay could be helped to finance the operation and the detainment camps.

 

And we should stop taking every EU directive or law as one of own until we have considered its pros and cons for us.

.

.

 

To undertake the actions you mention, which are already taking place under Interpol by the way, the UK needs to be part of an international framework to be able to enforce this effectively.

 

Regarding the students, they are part of the numbers that are being used, your point about Chinese students with prams is rather moot though, I know at least one lass like you describe and the only reason she is here is for that old thing called love. Most Chinese students awaits a far better life in China than they could get here with the same degree, they are therefore generally rather keen to get back.

 

I've never disputed there are benefits to immigration. That doesn't mean those benefits can't be achieved with a smaller number of migrants if we are choosier about who comes here.

 

Good. And what is going to be choosier going to achieve, you are still skirting around the facts I summed up, open EU immigration is actually beneficial for the UK economy, other countries that are choosier have in fact equal or even higher immigration rates. My uncle recently considered moving his whole family to Norway as they were recruiting lumberjacks, you know, unskilled, dangerous,, dirty work. Reason they are recruiting them abroad is because locals don't want those jobs. A friend of mine who is a nurse literally got begged by the Swiss government to come and live there, being offered a 20k euro incentive to do so.

 

We had a democratic vote to keep FPTP. Go home if you don't like it.

aaaah classy. Just so you are aware, we didn't have a vote to keep fptp, we had a vote to replace it with an over complicated and equally draconian system.

 

I'm a European citizen, I'd rather not be an EU citizen. I regard the EU as a foreign power exerting control over our laws and everyday lives. You wouldn't view it as a foreign power if you want to be part of it, fair enough, that's your opinion.

 

Don't like it? Get out then? Too easy?

 

So after arriving at Lampedusa, illegal immigrants get sent home, and don't in fact get shipped to Sicily and mainland Italy where they are processed at holding facilities before being given six month Visas, is that what you are claiming?

 

 

I am claiming that the whole issue is incredibly complex and of a scale that is far too large for the UK alone to tackle. In fact, it is too large for the EU to tackle, hence it is a permanent topic with the UN. Your idyllic view that leaving the EU will magically fix this issue is absurd. Australia, the US, China, Russia.... They all have massive problems dealing with illegal immigration, in a world of haves and have nots, the have nots will seek to join the haves.

 

I agree with you about the UK benefits though.

 

Than without realising it you probably agree with me a whole lot more than you care to think. We do however disagree entirely on the way to resolve the issues at hand.

[lazarus 68]

Dont forget the 2 million illegals here. This doesnt even include them

 

Stop giving benefits and free housing and you will stop most immigration at a stroke.

[razvanalbu 10]

Stop giving benefits and free housing and you will stop most immigration at a stroke.

Yeah so we can give it to the lazy chavs and scammy mummys

[JFKvsNixon 11]

Stop giving benefits and free housing and you will stop most immigration at a stroke.

 

Can you even substantiate such a claim. Surely you don't believe that old one about all the immigrants coming here and being giving free houses and money. I thought that idea died out years ago.

 

Seeing that you quoted a post discussing illegal immigration, it's worth noting that illegal immigrants cannot claim benefits or a free housing because they're here illegally! So your little plan wouldn't make much difference there either.

[Happ Hazzard 10]

Immigration will be by far the biggest problem this country will face over the next 50 years. I honestly think that some people have their heads in the sand regarding this issue. We need to get to grips with it now before we end up with civil war.