Castlegate/old Market area redevelopment

[lil-minx92 10]

But most of the points raised by the other poster were either nothing to do with the council or incorrect.

 

Here’s a story criticising Leeds council - does this mean I have evidenced that Leeds is an unsuccessful operation?

 

https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/holbeck-managed-approach-leeds-sex-14813226

 

I don’t understand why you think a development on the south bank in Leeds demonstrates SCC incompetence at all to be honest.

 

Quite frankly I dont thinks any comparisons are needed to demonstrate SCC's incompetence with regards delivering redevelopment of the city centre retail offer. An office block with a few retail units underneath is what they have achieved in 20 years.

[Guest makapaka]

Quite frankly I dont thinks any comparisons are needed to demonstrate SCC's incompetence with regards delivering redevelopment of the city centre retail offer. An office block with a few retail units underneath is what they have achieved in 20 years.

 

Well not really - Hammerson pulling out of sevenstone was the main issue there though wasn’t it.

 

Due to the great recession.

 

I’m not suggesting they are perfect but let’s not make things up to try and demonstrate incompetence.

[Michael_N 36]

You're blaming the Council for many things that aren't within their remit.

 

Bus operators don't appear to want to use the Pond St bus station, (probably because it costs them money), so they prefer a more dispersed pattern of stops around the city. The Council cannot dictate to bus operators and in any case, it's SYPTE who are responsible for passenger transport issues, not the Council.

 

The Fire Station wasn't originally owned or controlled by the Council and the owners can do what they want with it. As I understand it, the Fire Service wanted to move to a new location which was better for their response times and the Council wanted the site for redevelopment, so the move suited all parties.

 

The Manpower Services building hasn't been demolished. it's still standing and is used by the Council.

 

The Eggbox had to go to make way for the St Pauls development and the new Peace Gardens, which most people think is a very good public space and an improvement on what was there before.

 

Bridges and underpasses are not popular with pedestrians, who prefer surface level, controlled pedestrian crossings. There are pedestrian crossing facilities across the dual carriageway to the Canal Basin and you can also get across to it via the overbridges around Park Square if you prefer.

 

Bus operators do want to use Pond Street Bus Station, as this is where the main driver crew bases are located and it's a good transport hub, plus provides a place to stack vehicles. However, Sheffield City Council in their wisdom have slowly killed that end of town so much so, that footfall is very sparse and passengers no longer want to travel to here. It's so far from everything now - especially with the council intent on moving everything towards The Moor. The same can be said for the Supertram. Who in their mind would move the markets from one of the main transport hubs, to the other end of the city centre a mile away from the nearest tram stop? Plus many buses from the north and eastern end of the city tend to terminate around Pond Street and Castle Markets.

[lil-minx92 10]

Well not really - Hammerson pulling out of sevenstone was the main issue there though wasn’t it.

Due to the great recession.

 

I’m not suggesting they are perfect but let’s not make things up to try and demonstrate incompetence.

 

Theres a whole thread on that assertion!.. with a poll suggesting not much confidence in the Council overall. Hammerson were appointed in 2001. The recession came about 7 years later. It was another 5 years after that before Hammerson pulled out.

https://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=550735

[Planner1 428]

Bus operators do want to use Pond Street Bus Station, as this is where the main driver crew bases are located and it's a good transport hub, plus provides a place to stack vehicles. However, Sheffield City Council in their wisdom have slowly killed that end of town so much so, that footfall is very sparse and passengers no longer want to travel to here. It's so far from everything now - especially with the council intent on moving everything towards The Moor. The same can be said for the Supertram. Who in their mind would move the markets from one of the main transport hubs, to the other end of the city centre a mile away from the nearest tram stop? Plus many buses from the north and eastern end of the city tend to terminate around Pond Street and Castle Markets.

How do you come to the conclusion that the old market site was at the main transport hub?

 

Castle Market was about a third of a mile from the Interchange and the Moor Market is about half a mile. A few hundred yards further that's all.

 

You're also conveniently forgetting that the Council have vastly improved the main pedestrian route into the city centre from the station and interchange and massively reduced the severance effect that the old Arundel Gate dual carriageway used to have. The area between Arundel Gate and the interchange is also now much better than it was and feels like it's part of the city centre, which it didn't before. So, far from "killing" the area near the interchange, it's actually been improved by what the Council have done.

 

One of the major issues with Sheffield city centre used to be that the shopping area was so long and narrow, stretching as it did pretty much from Wicker to the Moor. It's now becoming more compact and walkable.

[Guest makapaka]

Theres a whole thread on that assertion!.. with a poll suggesting not much confidence in the Council overall. Hammerson were appointed in 2001. The recession came about 7 years later. It was another 5 years after that before Hammerson pulled out.

https://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=550735

 

Missing some facts again I’m afraid - planning permission for the scheme was granted in 2006 - the recession arrived a year later and the crisis lasted until c 2010. In 2011 the central government pulled £12m of funding for the scheme.

[lil-minx92 10]

Missing some facts again I’m afraid - planning permission for the scheme was granted in 2006 - the recession arrived a year later and the crisis lasted until c 2010. In 2011 the central government pulled £12m of funding for the scheme.

 

I cant possibly include all the facts! You missed a few too- like only outline permission was granted in 2006.

 

£12m is drop in the ocean and Hammerson had (allegedly) decided they were banging their head against a brick wall well before 2011

[Guest makapaka]

I cant possibly include all the facts! You missed a few too- like only outline permission was granted in 2006.

 

£12m is drop in the ocean and Hammerson had (allegedly) decided they were banging their head against a brick wall well before 2011

 

It’s not a drop in the ocean for an LA reliant on the money.

 

The fact that only outline permission was granted in 2006 only reinforces the point that it was closer to the recession than you said.

 

As I mentioned before - I’m not saying the council is perfect but neither can they be blamed for anything and everything.

Edited August 30, 2018 by makapaka

[ads36 214]

personally, i'm quite excited about the Castlegate developments.

 

i cycle past / through it most work days, and quite frankly it's a dump. a vast expanse of redundant tarmac. Work is due to start next year (i think?) on 'Grey-to-Green' phase 2. In theory, this will create a small park/public space, beside the rivers. A small but important link in a key 'green corridor'.

 

if they only get it half-right, it'll be great.

[WalkleyIan 10]

personally, i'm quite excited about the Castlegate developments.

 

i cycle past / through it most work days, and quite frankly it's a dump. a vast expanse of redundant tarmac. Work is due to start next year (i think?) on 'Grey-to-Green' phase 2. In theory, this will create a small park/public space, beside the rivers. A small but important link in a key 'green corridor'.

 

if they only get it half-right, it'll be great.

 

I agree. Can't wait for it. I happened to see Richard the proprietor of the Dorothy Pax when cycling back last night and mentioned how this will bring the whole canal basin area back to the city. Although Exchange place is much quieter after the IRR extension you still get a lot of speeding vehicle going through the area as we noticed while chatting so it still feels cut off.

[Albert smith 11]

You're blaming the Council for many things that aren't within their remit.

 

Bus operators don't appear to want to use the Pond St bus station, (probably because it costs them money), so they prefer a more dispersed pattern of stops around the city. The Council cannot dictate to bus operators and in any case, it's SYPTE who are responsible for passenger transport issues, not the Council.

 

The Fire Station wasn't originally owned or controlled by the Council and the owners can do what they want with it. As I understand it, the Fire Service wanted to move to a new location which was better for their response times and the Council wanted the site for redevelopment, so the move suited all parties.

 

The Manpower Services building hasn't been demolished. it's still standing and is used by the Council.

 

The Eggbox had to go to make way for the St Pauls development and the new Peace Gardens, which most people think is a very good public space and an improvement on what was there before.

 

Bridges and underpasses are not popular with pedestrians, who prefer surface level, controlled pedestrian crossings. There are pedestrian crossing facilities across the dual carriageway to the Canal Basin and you can also get across to it via the overbridges around Park Square if you prefer.

So why did the planners destroy the Market areas. Was it to fall in with Scottish Widows the money lenders who own The Moor.

 

---------- Post added 31-08-2018 at 19:09 ----------

 

The new HSBC offices which are currently being built on the old Grosvenor Hotel site have retail units at ground floor level, so the building is regarded as part of the new retail quarter.

What about the rest of it .

 

---------- Post added 31-08-2018 at 19:13 ----------

 

Bus operators do want to use Pond Street Bus Station, as this is where the main driver crew bases are located and it's a good transport hub, plus provides a place to stack vehicles. However, Sheffield City Council in their wisdom have slowly killed that end of town so much so, that footfall is very sparse and passengers no longer want to travel to here. It's so far from everything now - especially with the council intent on moving everything towards The Moor. The same can be said for the Supertram. Who in their mind would move the markets from one of the main transport hubs, to the other end of the city centre a mile away from the nearest tram stop? Plus many buses from the north and eastern end of the city tend to terminate around Pond Street and Castle Markets.

The planners will just ignore such a question . they have no idea what makes this City tick ,it makes one wonder if they have any affinity with us at all.

 

---------- Post added 31-08-2018 at 19:16 ----------

 

How do you come to the conclusion that the old market site was at the main transport hub?

 

Castle Market was about a third of a mile from the Interchange and the Moor Market is about half a mile. A few hundred yards further that's all.

 

You're also conveniently forgetting that the Council have vastly improved the main pedestrian route into the city centre from the station and interchange and massively reduced the severance effect that the old Arundel Gate dual carriageway used to have. The area between Arundel Gate and the interchange is also now much better than it was and feels like it's part of the city centre, which it didn't before. So, far from "killing" the area near the interchange, it's actually been improved by what the Council have done.

 

One of the major issues with Sheffield city centre used to be that the shopping area was so long and narrow, stretching as it did pretty much from Wicker to the Moor. It's now becoming more compact and walkable.

Your last sentence is laughable how can a linear area from Fargate to Moorfoot be more compact than the original High Street Markets area.

[Planner1 428]

Your last sentence is laughable how can a linear area from Fargate to Moorfoot be more compact than the original High Street Markets area.

What High Street Market Area?

 

Years ago, the city centre shops ran pretty much from Wicker all the way to London Rd.

 

The new plans envisage it pretty much ending at Fargate and even that might have a bigger proportion of food / drink outlets than now. So, the plans do envisage a much more compact retail centre than before.

 

---------- Post added 31-08-2018 at 20:50 ----------

 

What about the rest of it .

It won't happen in one big project, it will be delivered piece by piece as the opportunities arise. There does not appear to be private sector interest in doing one big scheme anymore.

 

---------- Post added 31-08-2018 at 20:53 ----------

 

So why did the planners destroy the Market areas. Was it to fall in with Scottish Widows the money lenders who own The Moor.

 

They envisage that area as a business district, so having the markets there is incompatible with that use.

 

It's all in the draft city centre plan which is out to consultation: https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/citycentreplan