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Future of train services in the north - government consultation

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I don't know how Northern actually make any money. .

 

They dont - Thats why they get a huge subsidy as a public service

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The vast majority of those lines/stations though have ticket barriers on them though.

 

That don't seem to accept other train companies' tickets. And with gateline staff who are complete muppets. I have often got refused by Southeastern staff who seemed to think the return half of my Super Off-Peak ticket (from Sheffield to the Woolwich area) was not valid in the morning rush hour on their trains. What part of "Super Off-Peak tickets issued for journeys commencing within the Network Area to destinations outside the Network Area with travel via London are valid by any train to London to connect with trains from London" don't they understand - clear as anything in the restriction code "CI" printed on tickets from Sheffield to and via London (below the price). I have also have had a lengthy argument about my return half of a Super Off-Peak return ticket to Sheffield (to Stone Crossing) not being valid on HS1 on the basis that it had route Chesterfield on it - ATOC Easement 700283: Customers travelling from Dartford, Stone Crossing, Greenhithe, Swanscombe and Northfleet via Ebbsfleet International in possession of tickets routed "Plus High Speed" may travel via Gravesend. This easement applies in both directions..

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a lot of Gateline staff are not Railway employees so the terms peanuts and monkeys are applicable

 

Rialway employeed Gateline staff will be on about £21k pa,,,,the agency ones on NMW

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However, Hull and Hull Trains are making a good case to electrify from Selby to Hull which adds another twist to the future planning, see; http://www.hulltrains.co.uk/about-us/news/2014/03/first-hull-trains-welcomes-%C2%A324m-government-pledge-to-electrify-train-lines-from-hull-to-selby/ and; http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Electrification-Hull-Selby-railway-line-power/story-20837410-detail/story.html

 

A target date of 2017 sounds a little optimistic, but if it's to be mostly paid for by Hull Trains maybe it isn't.

 

Curiously, the aim of the Northern Hub locally is to provide paths for at least 3 fast trains an hour down the Hope Valley to Manchester. It wasn't so very long ago that I seem to recall the fast services between Sheffield and Manchester served Cleethorpes and Hull alternately. Deprive Cleethorpes of direct trains for 2 or 3 years, then announce an improved service Sheffield - Manchester; that third Hope Valley hourly train, going from Cleethorpes to Blackpool - or even Windermere?!

 

The consultation documents seem to suggest the most likely outcome is the third Sheffield-Manchester express per hour will run through to Liverpool via Warrington to replace a service diverted via the other (electrified) route via Newton Le Willows.

 

The Hull electrification will be from Hull via Selby to the East Coast Mainline so London services can go electric. There would still be a gap from Selby to Leeds.

Edited by Andy C

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The Hull electrification will be from Hull via Selby to the East Coast Mainline so London services can go electric. There would still be a gap from Selby to Leeds.

 

That's got to be less than 30 miles of track, if they can't get that done it'd just be daft.

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That's got to be less than 30 miles of track, if they can't get that done it'd just be daft.

 

There's lots of 30 mile bits of track which would be good / useful fill-in projects.

 

Problem is, there's lots of them.

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I really don't see this as a fill-in they would be allowing fast intercity travel between 3 major cities, Hull is also a major port and gateway to northern Europe.

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I really don't see this as a fill-in they would be allowing fast intercity travel between 3 major cities, Hull is also a major port and gateway to northern Europe.

 

It's a fill-in as it fills-in the gap between two major electrification projects. Swinton - Doncaster will be a fill-in, and will also enable several intercity journeys to become electric.

 

Most of these projects don't have a sufficiently high Benefit:Cost ratio until the major electrification project is completed for them to be prioritised. However, NR know there's not much point in having an electrification team sat around doing nothing between major projects - they've invested heavily in the infrastructure and people to do these projects, so they may as well put them to work.

 

Basically, Leeds - Selby will be done at some point, but there are many other short routes which are just as useful to electrify.

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It is mentioned in the consultation document that the Department for Transport announced establishment of a joint taskforce with Network

Rail to study options for further electrification across the North of England.

 

This taskforce is working with train operators, local authorities and Rail North, the supply industry and local Members of Parliament to produce an interim report within 12 months setting out how further schemes can be progressed and development accelerated. The routes to be examined will include, but are not limited to:

 

 Doncaster - Selby – Hull

 East Coast Main Line – Middlesbrough

 Leeds – Harrogate – York

 Sheffield – Leeds (via Moorthorpe)

 Sheffield – Doncaster

 Sheffield – Manchester

 Warrington – Chester

 Crewe – Chester

 

part 3 of https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/318212/northern-transpennine-consultation.pdf

 

---------- Post added 15-06-2014 at 09:34 ----------

 

This is one area where there could be some concern when it comes to the new Northern Franchise:

 

Trade-offs

 

3.40 Both franchises are seeing strong growth in demand and experience crowding at times; we would wish the next franchises to provide additional capacity to meet this demand. As demand patterns change there may be a stronger case for improving some weekend, early and late services, but the additional revenue from this may not cover the additional costs. At the same time there are many very lightly-used services and stations, especially among those operated by Northern.

 

3.41 This all points to the need to redistribute the available resources to match current and future needs, while protecting those services which are genuinely essential. There are three particular areas where trade-offs could be made:

 

1 Fares

As set out in Chapter 2, some areas have fares significantly below what is found elsewhere on the network, for historic policy reasons. The wider economic benefits of doing so need to be considered, but increasing those fares to levels more in line with the rest of the network could help to pay for better services, so long as this does not impose costs on other bodies that do not have the capacity to bear them.

 

2 Rolling stock

We firmly believe the rolling stock on Northern services needs to be improved so that passengers recognise a step change. But the more expensive the trains (and brand-new trains are likely to be the most expensive option of all), the harder it will be to justify current service levels where demand is low, and to afford to improve services where demand is increasing.

 

3 Ticket offices

We also need to consider how we can enable efficiencies in working practices, such as reducing the opening hours of lightly-used ticket offices, to promote new ticketing technologies and to help to fund a higher level of visible staff presence where passengers most value it: for example on trains providing customer service and protecting revenue, and at stations when passengers need it for accessibility, safety and security, reassurance and ticket sales.

 

The Fares and Ticketing Review: Next Steps22, published in October 2013, announced plans to improve the way the Department for Transport manages approvals for changes to ticket offices with incentives for train companies to modernise ticketing facilities, whilst providing appropriate safeguards for passengers.

Edited by Andy C

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It is proposed that Sheffield will loose its direct train services Grantham, Peterborough, Ely( for Cambridge etc) and Norwich and all fast trains to Scunthorpe, Grimsby and Cleethorpes. Sheffield- Nottingham services will be downgraded

 

The plan now under consultation would end the Regional Liverpool-Norwich trains and Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes services.

 

The consultation proposes splitting the Liverpool to Norwich service at Nottingham using local type trains .

 

TPE services will run to Hull rather than Cleethorpes so Sheffield / Meadowhall/ Doncaster to Scunthorpe, Grimsby and Cleethorpes will see journey times increase dramatically and with the loss of nearly half the trains. The services will be replaced by slow, all stop bus like-Pacer derivatives.

 

These plans will come into effect when electrification is completed between Blackpool/Liverpool/Manchester and Leeds/Selby.

The oldest diesel stock will becomes available at the same time as the new franchises start.

 

Source and responses can be made Here

This is what happens when investment passes us by.

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It is proposed that Sheffield will loose its direct train services Grantham, Peterborough, Ely( for Cambridge etc) and Norwich and all fast trains to Scunthorpe, Grimsby and Cleethorpes. Sheffield- Nottingham services will be downgraded

 

The plan now under consultation would end the Regional Liverpool-Norwich trains and Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes services.

 

The consultation proposes splitting the Liverpool to Norwich service at Nottingham using local type trains .

 

TPE services will run to Hull rather than Cleethorpes so Sheffield / Meadowhall/ Doncaster to Scunthorpe, Grimsby and Cleethorpes will see journey times increase dramatically and with the loss of nearly half the trains. The services will be replaced by slow, all stop bus like-Pacer derivatives.

 

These plans will come into effect when electrification is completed between Blackpool/Liverpool/Manchester and Leeds/Selby.

The oldest diesel stock will becomes available at the same time as the new franchises start.

 

Source and responses can be made Here

This is what happens when investment passes us by.

 

But on the plus side Meadowhall will get HS2 which will means in 30 years time you will be able to get to London 15 minutes quicker from there than you currently can from Sheffield Station. Although it will probably take you 15 minutes to get to Meadowhall if you are in the city centre.

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This is what happens when investment passes us by.

 

Not really, the DfT have wanted to do this for years, but it keeps getting rejected at the consultation stage.

 

Although it will probably take you 15 minutes to get to Meadowhall if you are in the city centre.

 

But it will equally improve journey times for people from Rotherham / Barnsley.

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