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The Labour Party. All discussion here please

Groose

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Labour Leave supporters could not bring themselves to vote for a second referendum Labour party (with an option to Remain) or the Tories so have voted for the Brexit Party.

 

Predictable, only Remainers failed to see it.

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Just now, Car Boot said:

Labour Leave supporters could not bring themselves to vote for a second referendum Labour party (with an option to Remain) or the Tories so have voted for the Brexit Party.

 

Predictable, only Remainers failed to see it.

Labour leave voters in many seats are like my cousins in a former mining village near Doncaster who are always saying "Sheffield is full of Pakis".

 

Brexit was a proxy for immigration among "traditional" labour voters.

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10 minutes ago, Car Boot said:

Labour Leave supporters could not bring themselves to vote for a second referendum Labour party (with an option to Remain) or the Tories so have voted for the Brexit Party.

 

Predictable, only Remainers failed to see it.

The trouble is that Labour Remain supporters would have defected en masse to the LibDems if the party had openly supported Brexit.  It was a lose-lose situation.

 

11 minutes ago, Longcol said:

Brexit has been a proxy for anti - immigration views among traditional Labour voters in seats with a small BME community.

I say this with a heavy heart, coming from that kind of background myself, but I think that that is probably true.  Not the whole story, but a big part of it.

Edited by CaptainSwing

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With the Liberal Democrats predicted to win only 13 seats, the Remain side is hardly a vote winner.

 

Labour should have been a pro-Brexit party, as it was in 2017. It would have kept it's working class Leave voters and probably have resulted in a hung parliament or even a small Labour majority. But Remain has destroyed any hope of that.

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13 minutes ago, CaptainSwing said:

I say this with a heavy heart, coming from that kind of background myself, but I think that that is probably true.  Not the whole story, but a big part of it.

We've seen it for years on SF (and in the Tory press) - immigrants / Muslims get given council houses (conveniently forgetting so many have been sold off under right to buy) get given colour TV's / cars (no - actually that's my neighbour who owns his own business).

3 minutes ago, Car Boot said:

With the Liberal Democrats predicted to win only 13 seats, the Remain side is hardly a vote winner.

 

Labour should have been a pro-Brexit party, as it was in 2017. It would have kept it's working class Leave voters and probably have resulted in a hung parliament or even a small Labour majority. But Remain has destroyed any hope of that.

So you're not prepared to deal with racism / unfounded fear of immigration or just plain ignorance among large sectors of the "traditional" working class?

 

Labour was simply anti-Tory in 2017 and wasn't hidebound by the most expensive manifesto known to mankind.

Edited by Longcol

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Labour Leave would have won the election.

 

If Remain is so popular why are the Liberal Democrats only predicted to win a few seats?

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Just now, Car Boot said:

Labour Leave would have won the election.

 

If Remain is so popular why are the Liberal Democrats only predicted to win a few seats?

Because Labour remainers voted Labour.............................................................................

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58 minutes ago, CaptainSwing said:

Corbyn's position was pro-second-referendum, which is what you've spent most of the last three years arguing for. 

Except that I have never once argued for a second referendum.

 

Being a Brexit-lite party was never going to win an election for Labour against Bozo’s ‘Get Brexit Done!’ campaign. The only chance Labour had of winning this election was by standing as the only credible Remain Party. To do this they would have had to have ditched Corbyn some time ago.

 

Yes, it would have lost some Leave seats in the North but would have picked up many more in other areas. Pandering to the minority of traditional, mostly reactionary older Labour Leave supporters has absolutely failed as a strategy as most of those people have still voted for Johnson or Farage.

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23 minutes ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Except that I have never once argued for a second referendum.

 

Being a Brexit-lite party was never going to win an election for Labour against Bozo’s ‘Get Brexit Done!’ campaign. The only chance Labour had of winning this election was by standing as the only credible Remain Party. To do this they would have had to have ditched Corbyn some time ago.

 

Yes, it would have lost some Leave seats in the North but would have picked up many more in other areas. Pandering to the minority of traditional, mostly reactionary older Labour Leave supporters has absolutely failed as a strategy as most of those people have still voted for Johnson or Farage.

If Labour, the so called party of the working class, ignore their core voters its not surprising if the voters look elsewhere.

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26 minutes ago, BoroB said:

If Labour, the so called party of the working class, ignore their core voters its not surprising if the voters look elsewhere.

But it was Russian influence.. Oh hang on! :hihi:

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1 hour ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Except that I have never once argued for a second referendum.

OK, apologies if I've misremembered.  You've certainly argued many times that there is a decent majority in the country for Remain, in which case I don't know why you wouldn't have argued in favour of a second referendum, given that unilaterally revoking Article 50 was clearly politically impossible.

 

1 hour ago, Top Cats Hat said:

Being a Brexit-lite party was never going to win an election for Labour against Bozo’s ‘Get Brexit Done!’ campaign. The only chance Labour had of winning this election was by standing as the only credible Remain Party. To do this they would have had to have ditched Corbyn some time ago.

 

Yes, it would have lost some Leave seats in the North but would have picked up many more in other areas. Pandering to the minority of traditional, mostly reactionary older Labour Leave supporters has absolutely failed as a strategy as most of those people have still voted for Johnson or Farage.

Labour is projected to have lost about 70 seats on a moderate Remain platform.  I can't see that they would have lost fewer by taking an extreme position - how's that panning out for the Lib Dems?

 

Where are these other areas where you think they'd have picked up loads more seats?  You can wait until after all the results are in before answering that, if you like.

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This is very popular on Twitter from "Russinchesire" at the moment, it resonates so much with what so many are thinking:

 

Quote

Exit poll


386 Tory
191 Labour

Tory majority of 81

So f***  it, I'm gonna risk this rant... it's been brewing for a while...

 

People will say "I bet you want Blair". No. Blair might be the opposite of Corbyn, but he's not the only alternative to him. The mistake Labour made is thinking a bad person being good at politics means everybody good at politics is bad.

 

People will say "the media is biased". Yes. But that's the environment Labour leaders always operate in. Complaining about it is like trawler captains complaining the sea is wet. Yep. Learn to thrive in those conditions, or get off the boat.

 

People will say "they treated him worse than any previous leader". They did. Cos he was s**t at working the press, had a history of opinions that could be easily made to look awful, was inept on antisemitism, shifty on Brexit and cantankerous on TV.

 

People will say "no way is he racist". Perhaps. But if people accused me of antisemitism, I'd be able to clearly defend myself, demonstrate my credentials, and put in place a strategy to stop accusations. He couldn't. If he's not antisemitic, he's inept.

 

People will say "voters love him in person". I'm sure. But we've been in the age of broadcasting for 80 years. What the hell use is being warm and cuddly to 600 people in a field, when you come over badly to 60 million people on TV?

 

People will say "he grew the party". He did. But he lost elections.

People will say "members love him". They do. But members aren't all voters.

People will say "his manifesto is great". Maybe. But the more radical your are, the better salesman you need to be. And he's crap.


People will say "who would have done better?" Literally every other Leader of the Opposition EVER. Specifically Jess Phillips, Kier Starmer, David Lammy, Angela Rayner, Laura Piddock, Yvette Cooper, or Tom Watson before you drove him and a dozen more out.

People will say "you're a centrist, just join LibDems". Yes I am, vaguely, and no I won't. I'd happily vote for Corbyn's agenda if it was led by someone competent and appealing.

People will say "Brexit broke traditional parties". True. But Leave all voted Tory. Why didn't Remain all vote Labour? Cos our leader is divisive, inept, shambolic, uninspiring, and too easy to besmirch as an antisemite, terrorist sympathiser, and Leave voter.

 

People will say "his Brexit plan made sense". Maybe. But he had to be dragged to it over the course of 3 years, resisting every step, giving mixed messages and looking woozy and lost; by the time he had a plan, nobody trusted him.

People will say "Tories told thousands of lies". Yep. If only somebody had seen this happen before and put together a Rapid Response Unit to kill lies in seconds. Oh yeah, Blair did that and won. Corbyn didn't and lost. Just cos Blair did it, doesn't make it bad.

People will say "the PLP mutinied against him". They did. They aren't idiots. They could see within weeks Corbyn was a disaster, cos they'd met him. 172 wanted him to go. 40 wanted him to stay. Pretty much the ratio of voters who wanted him to stay / go. MPs were right.

People will say "we had to let him try". We did let him try. For years. He lost the referendum in 2016. He lost the election in 2017. He lost the EU elections in 2019. He's lost again. The only thing he's won was "most unpopular Leader of Opposition in history".

People will say "the soft left didn't help him". We did. We proposed him as leader. We elected him leader. We voted for him in elections, even though we knew he was s***e. What didn't help him was the hard left telling us to go and join LibDems every day.

People will say "he was democratically elected". Yes. But members are fanatical, by definition. They don't think like average voters. Letting a fan club manage a band is a stupid idea. They'll book Wembley for 4 nights for Steve Brookstein, cos they don't realise he's s**t.

And I'm sure people will say rude things to me. They'll pick apart every word and quibble every sentiment. They'll demand I "prove it", or send me links showing how wrong I am. Sick of that s**t. We lost, millions will suffer, and you're still defending the primary cause.

Jeremy Corbyn has been, from the moment he was elected leader, the Tory party's wet dream. Unless you drink a LOT of Kool Aid, you could predict this fiasco years ago.  If he couldn't see it coming, he's a moron. If he could, he's a selfish p***k for not quitting.

Time to go now. Hand over to whatever MPs are left after this car-crash, get to your allotment, and let some bloody professionals try to save what they can from the Tory disaster you've bequeathed upon an undeserving nation.

 

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