The Labour Party. All discussion here please

[Top Cats Hat 10]

I asked you to read some other posts in which the writers seem to have problems with donations from Jews but not other donators.

 

I suspect that they have been deleted so I can't really comment on them, can I?

[melthebell 863]

in my response to your post I neither mentioned Israel or organisations who support them. I asked you to read some other posts in which the writers seem to have problems with donations from Jews but not other donators. In what way is that conflating Jews with supporting Israel ?

hahaha i see what your'e doing there

 

again its to shut down debate, Banjo mentioned (rightly or wrongly) that Tom Watson got paid donations from a jewish group? then months later he goes against his party leader and says the labour party should take on board the whole anti-semitism definition list.

Is that a conflict of interest? could it have swayed their "idea"? is it right to buy party support? or even 1 member of a party?

 

Its like somebody in the motoring industry paying an mp a "donation" then a year later they start saying we need to build this contentious road...etc etc?

 

He wasnt saying being a jew is good or bad, or that the actual donation was good or bad, but could there be a link to what he said from what he got?

 

The definition of anti-semetism is being moved from what it once was to even mentioning the word jew, or as i keep saying, anything to do with Israel and even their actions against the palestinian people.

Edited August 6, 2018 by melthebell

[gomgeg 10]

I thought that Baroness Chakrabarti had carried out an investigation into alleged anti semetism in the Labour Party and found there was very little.

So that's OK then, there can't be, mind she's been very quiet lately.

[hobinfoot 25]

hahaha i see what your'e doing there

 

again its to shut down debate, Banjo mentioned (rightly or wrongly) that Tom Watson got paid donations from a jewish group? then months later he goes against his party leader and says the labour party should take on board the whole anti-semitism definition list.

Is that a conflict of interest? could it have swayed their "idea"? is it right to buy party support? or even 1 member of a party?

 

Its like somebody in the motoring industry paying an mp a "donation" then a year later they start saying we need to build this contentious road...etc etc?

 

He wasnt saying being a jew is good or bad, or that the actual donation was good or bad, but could there be a link to what he said from what he got?

 

The definition of anti-semetism is being moved from what it once was to even mentioning the word jew, or as i keep saying, anything to do with Israel and even their actions against the palestinian people.

I'm doing nothing to shut down debate and never would. I don't know about Tom Watson or any donations he gets. I also don't know what the international definition of anti- semititism is but it seems to have been adopted by many countries. But the leftist in the Labour Party have a real problem with excepting it.

Edited August 6, 2018 by hobinfoot

[melthebell 863]

I'm doing nothing to shut down debate and never would. I don't know about Tom Watson or any donations he gets. I also don't know what the international definition of anti- semititism is but it seems to have been adopted by many countries. But the leftist in the Labour Party have a real problem with excepting it.

accepting

 

I dont accept it either, not the 3 or 4 parts which shut down debate about Israels despicable actions on the palestinians.

 

NO country should be above criticism and debate

[Top Cats Hat 10]

I also don't know what the international definition of anti- semititism is but it seems to have been adopted by many countries. But the leftist in the Labour Party have a real problem with excepting it.

 

Nobody disagrees with the definition of anti semitism.

 

What many people take issue with though, is that the second part of the definition gives examples of anti semitism, five of which refer to the state of Israel. As it stands, in some cases, a person or group's criticism of Israel can be found to be anti semitic without having to prove any intent.

 

Labour's contention (along with many others), is that the examples need to be refined to allow for a determination of intent. And they are right. To fight anti semitism, you first need to define who is anti semitic. Adding to the list of genuine anti semites, all those judged to be anti Semitic because of their position on the state of Israel, ultimately does a disservice to that fight.

 

If an international definition of Islamaphobia included examples which meant that any real or implied criticism of Saudi Arabia, Iran or any ISIS held areas of Syria or Iraq was deemed Islamophobic, would you support it, even if many organisations around the world did?

 

As I've said many times on this thread, those who have used the plight of the Jewish people to score political points, are undermining the fight against anti semitism and one day will be judged as such.

[melthebell 863]

ok on the subject of donations i found the following:-

(please correct if any of this is wrong)

 

Since December 2015, Tom Watson has received £50,000 in personal donations from Sir Trevor Chinn

 

You'd be forgiven for not knowing who Chinn is, but here is a little overview. He is a Zionist and ardent supporter of the state of Israel; he has funded the

Conservative Friends of Israel and Labour Friends of Israel; and he sits on the Executive Committee of the Jewish Leadership Council

 

also from his wiki page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Chinn

 

Throughout his life he has also devoted himself to the Jewish Community in Britain and supporting the State of Israel.[1] His roles in Jewish communal life have included Chairman (and now President) of the Joint Israel Appeal, the leading organisation in Britain supporting Israel's humanitarian needs; board member of The Jewish Community Centre for London, President of Norwood from 1996 to 2006; one of the founders of the Jewish Association for Business Ethics (and now Vice President). Sir Trevor currently sits on the Executive Committee of the Jewish Leadership Council and Chair of London Mayor's Fund.[2]

 

Chinn has donated to the office or campaigns of a number of Labour Party politicians, including Tony Blair, Ruth Smeeth, Liz Kendall, Tom Watson and Dan Jarvis.[3] Chinn is associated with the Labour Friends of Israel.

 

also found this interesting leftist article on the UKs pro Israel lobby (again please correct if any of it is wrong)

http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/the_uks_pro_israel_lobby_in_context

 

some would say his donations could be biased? a sweetner? trying to buy favour for his support of Israel?

[the_bloke 17]

Again, unless you can prove that Watson is in 'cash for questions' territory, you can't say that an organisation donating him money is actually manipulating his political power without holding up everyone in the Labour party - or any party - and accusing them of the same thing.

[Top Cats Hat 10]

Tom Watson is not critising Corbyn because he may or may not have received money from pro Israel groups, but because he is positioning himself to jump into the Labour leader's shoes at the first opportunity.

[melthebell 863]

Again, unless you can prove that Watson is in 'cash for questions' territory, you can't say that an organisation donating him money is actually manipulating his political power without holding up everyone in the Labour party - or any party - and accusing them of the same thing.

the point is i think, theres tons of media outrage about the labour party and anti-semitism, but does this kind of thing show there could be more to it than just a few "racists / nazis" whatever you want to call anybody whos anti-semetic?

If you look at the definitions list and how the definition of anti-semetism has changed from purely being about hatred and disrespecting jews and now has a fair few about the country / state of Israel is there something going on behind the scenes with those that have an agenda on such matters.

Now for labour, if you look at those names i mentioned are they the ones that would criticise Israel for its actions or are they ones that dont care what Israel gets up to?

Is Jeremy Corbyn a long time critic of Israels actions and a supporter of the palestinian people?

Are the zionists trying to nudge the leader out?

[hobinfoot 25]

Nobody disagrees with the definition of anti semitism.

 

What many people take issue with though, is that the second part of the definition gives examples of anti semitism, five of which refer to the state of Israel. As it stands, in some cases, a person or group's criticism of Israel can be found to be anti semitic without having to prove any intent.

 

Labour's contention (along with many others), is that the examples need to be refined to allow for a determination of intent. And they are right. To fight anti semitism, you first need to define who is anti semitic. Adding to the list of genuine anti semites, all those judged to be anti Semitic because of their position on the state of Israel, ultimately does a disservice to that fight.

 

If an international definition of Islamaphobia included examples which meant that any real or implied criticism of Saudi Arabia, Iran or any ISIS held areas of Syria or Iraq was deemed Islamophobic, would you support it, even if many organisations around the world did?

 

As I've said many times on this thread, those who have used the plight of the Jewish people to score political points, are undermining the fight against anti semitism and one day will be judged as such.

I've not read nor intend to the international definition of anti semitism. But if it parts of it does stop criticism of Israel then I to would find it difficult to accept.

[Robin-H 11]

I've not read nor intend to the international definition of anti semitism. But if it parts of it does stop criticism of Israel then I to would find it difficult to accept.

 

It doesn't.

 

There are many ways to criticise Israel which do not fall foul of the categories mentioned in the IHRA definition. The IHRA definition specifically says that “criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.”