Hillsborough Disaster - 15 years ago

[BoroughGal 10]

Originally posted by Lavalamp

There is a training video that is shown to new stewards and even that says that failure to properly steward the match contributed to the tragic ACCIDENT.

 

"Contributed" being the operative word. Just as drunken fans contributed, with a whole number of other factors.

 

 

There are drunken fans at every game, every where and it is up to the Police, safety stewards and turnstile operators to make sure they don't get in.

 

There were more drunk fans arriving late than at any match I have ever seen. And the police and stewards ONLY allowed them inside the ground to prevent a disaster occuring outside the gates. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Lavalamp 10]

Originally posted by kirky

stewards are jobsworth muppets..end of

 

Ok - but please expand on this, why exactly do you think stewards are jobsworth muppets? All Premier League stewards have to go through NVQ training in the course of employment - a rule brought in since Hillsborough (this is also being phased in for the lower divisions over the next couple of years). How can you slag off people who work to keep you safe at a match? Surely the people of both Sheffield and Liverpool appreciate the need for such a service. Yes, it is true some of them do just go to watch the match - but if you notice there are at least 200 stewards (required by law) at each match and the ones that are watching are normally pitchside. They are required to make sure that no-one encroaches onto the pitch. If someone does get onto the pitch the Police only are allowed to remove them, for fear of prosecution, etc. The stewards in the vomitories have the responsibility of keeping stairwells clear, watching for people standing, showing them to their seats and making sure that everyone leaves the ground safely. A steward is also employed to stay at each exit gate throughout the match in case of the need for evacuation.

A steward is not being a jobsworth if they ask you to sit down - they are doing so because if you fell it is highly likely that you would fall forwards onto the people in front and then they would do the same. Neither are they being picky if they tell you to stop standing on a stairwell - it is for your own safety.

But, if you still feel like that maybe we should try a match without any stewards. PNEFC tried a match without police to save money last season and the conclusion - never again.

Plus, surely it is subjective whether or not there were more drunken people there than at any other match? Some of the games I have worked at have been quite violent and bad stewards are not employed for long - especially when they let drunken people into the stands. The sad fact is no-one could have foreseen what happened and yes there was an error of judgement - by letting so many people in so quickly. Today it would just not happen - THANK GOD - and that is the main point I was trying to make. A number of factors contributed to Hillsborough - the well documented emergency services delay too. However, there is no need to point the finger and say "oh well - it is your fault you were drunk." Remember exactly what we are talking about here - 96 people went to a football match and never came back. Those who say it should have been more - should remember that we are not just talking about adults here, there were children too - still this probably won't change your minds.

[Plain Talker 11]

hang on a moment, lavalamp!

 

no-one has suggested that any of the 96 deaths that day at hillsborough were desirable, in any way shape or form!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

as far as I have read, no -one on here has suggested that any man. woman or child who died that day deserved to. every one of those deaths was awful, and sad.

 

What most of us had said was that the deaths were

 

PREVENTABLE

 

The deaths could have been prevented if the ticketless and drunken fans who arrived late, and caused the crush had either

 

a) had the sense not to travel, seeing as they were ticketless

 

b) had the sense not to turn up at the ground drunk,

 

and c) had the sense not to try to storm the ground to get in... (crushing and deaths outside the football ground versus crushing and deaths inside the ground... not an easy choice, eh?)

 

As I said in my earlier comments on this thread, the ones who perished were not the drunken, ticketless ones, they were the ones who had arrived in good time, and taken their positions in the Leppings Lane end Whilst I cannot vouch that every last one of those supporters already there was stone-cold sober, the evidence certainly seems to support the theory that they who were already in their positions hadn't spent the time up to kick-off, (virtually) in the pubs, doesn't it?

 

The kick off had alreay been delayed somewhat, because of the brewing problem outside the match iirc.

 

We can all pontificate on this matter, with a certain amount of hindsight, as hindsight is always an exact science.

 

The facts remain that it wasn't the Nottingham Forest supporters on Leppings Lane who were storming the ground... and it was not the fans who had arrived in good time and taken their positions in the ground in good time who were outside, storming the ground... so if it was not the orderly-acting fans, and it wasn't the Nottngam forest suporters. who was it?

 

It is well documented evidence that there were liverpool fans, drinking in local pubs right up to the scheduled kick-off time of 1500. many of whom were ticketless, and who tried to storm the ground to get inside.

 

Mr PT asks me to point out (a little controversially)"at the Heysel Stadium, when the wall collapsed, and killed 39, and injured 400+, was it also the case that the local police, and stewards there were to blame for the behaviour of the Liverpool fans?"

 

PT

[stwar 10]

being a wednesday fan and having a mother from liverpool that day was a very bad time for me ,also one of our friends on that day was an ambulance driver,it cracked her up .the police had no choice but to open the gates,because what everybody would like to think(perhaps to aportion blame)the liverpool supporters brought it upon their own people the were drunk they were late Iwas drinking with them!just view the video evidence the wall outside was ready to collapse unfortunatly the people who died on that daywere the propper supporters not the p***s heads that just go out for the day

[pippin 10]

I'm unclear about the backdrop to all this so a few questions:

 

Did Liverpool supporters have a good reputation prior to Hillsborough?

 

Did Liverpool supporters accept any blame for Hysel?

 

Did all Liverpool supporters have tickets?

 

Were no supporters drunk?

 

Did they all arrive at the ground in good time?

 

Did they all behave impeccably?

 

Did none cause a potential problem outside the ground?

 

Why does the HFSG "campaign to bring out the truth" when they apparently deny a fundamental one themselves?

 

Is there a memorial to Hysel at Anfield?

 

Why do people 'in the know' (Police, media, football authorities, stewards, other supporters etc) allow the facts to be masked?

 

Did Boris have it right?

[timo 10]

No offence to Pippin or anyone else, but isn't it time to close this thread. We've heard every argument from every side now, plus Boris's comments were covered on my now closed thread. Just a thought...

[pitsmoorlad 10]

Originally posted by timo

No offence to Pippin or anyone else, but isn't it time to close this thread. We've heard every argument from every side now, plus Boris's comments were covered on my now closed thread. Just a thought...

 

I agree entirely, let's put this one to bed, nobody's going to make anyone change their mind and we'll just go round in circles.

[TINK91 10]

no, think i will keep this going Hitler.